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Old 21st July 2006, 16:08   #16
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LBM, 2000w rms of amplification power is way too much for any stock charging system. Since the alternator/ battery combination are not able to deliver enough energy to the system when in use, the battery is being pushed to levels under normal/ ideal voltage AFTER a certain period of time. I appreciate that you have put up readings of the voltage at different intervals, but there is no mention of how far apart these intervals are. And since it's regular music and not a tone, it is difficult to tell how long the battery is actually sustaining the drain, since the battery would recharge marginally during breaks. For example, if you play a number with only vocals for the whole duration of the track, you'll probably get away without any voltage drop whatsoever.

By upgrading to a battery with a higher AH, it would be possible to extend the period of time for which the system would be played till the voltage drops perilously low.

The real solution for someone hell bent on going deaf, however, would be to upgrade the alternator to 2000 Watts/ 12volts = 166.66 amperes, add a little more capacity for devices like headlamps/ wipers/ aircon etc based on their fuse ratings, and roughly about 200-230 A should be sufficient to keep the car system going perpetually without affecting the battery.

Regularly, if a bloke walked up to a car accessories retail shop and said, "Hey, I want a big amp that compensates for my undersized willy", the first question posed to him would be "In whose name shall I make the bill, sir"? Then get to the consequences, and make it well understood to him that the system he is planning, would have severe limitations if he were not to undertake other necessary modifications. So if he still goes ahead and installs the system, you can't blame the shop, right? Maybe that's what the installer thought too. He wouldn't want someone walking out the door just cos the prospective buyer doesn't subsribe to his 'views'. Maybe the customer just didn't have the money to up his charging at the same time as he was installing the system and plans it as a future upgrade, which is fair. On the other hand, maybe the installer had no clue himself, and he believes that full-grown, black African males with raging hormones were meant to copluate with Vietnamese teens!! But if you get a dodo with no inkling, and averse to learning, you don't have much choice, do you? Please understand the possible attitude of the customer here, and not just the guy who's installing/ selling it being portrayed as a con job specialist.


That said...uh, what was the question???

Last edited by Bass&Trouble : 21st July 2006 at 16:10.
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Old 21st July 2006, 17:31   #17
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As B&T said it above you are drawing 170A but even with the engine running charging at 70A. If you want to do that you can use this
http://www.tudor-india.com/Details.aspx?mode=E&id=77
or the PCG200 or at the very leat the 6 PLF 130 from Exide
along with a bigger alternator.
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Old 21st July 2006, 17:31   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
LBM, 2000w rms of amplification power is way too much for any stock charging system. Since the alternator/ battery combination are not able to deliver enough energy to the system when in use, the battery is being pushed to levels under normal/ ideal voltage AFTER a certain period of time.I appreciate that you have put up readings of the voltage at different intervals, but there is no mention of how far apart these intervals are. And since it's regular music and not a tone, it is difficult to tell how long the battery is actually sustaining the drain, since the battery would recharge marginally during breaks. For example, if you play a number with only vocals for the whole duration of the track, you'll probably get away without any voltage drop whatsoever.

By upgrading to a battery with a higher AH, it would be possible to extend the period of time for which the system would be played till the voltage drops perilously low.

The real solution for someone hell bent on going deaf, however, would be to upgrade the alternator to 2000 Watts/ 12volts = 166.66 amperes, add a little more capacity for devices like headlamps/ wipers/ aircon etc based on their fuse ratings, and roughly about 200-230 A should be sufficient to keep the car system going perpetually without affecting the battery.

Regularly, if a bloke walked up to a car accessories retail shop and said, "Hey, I want a big amp that compensates for my undersized willy", the first question posed to him would be "In whose name shall I make the bill, sir"? Then get to the consequences, and make it well understood to him that the system he is planning, would have severe limitations if he were not to undertake other necessary modifications. So if he still goes ahead and installs the system, you can't blame the shop, right? Maybe that's what the installer thought too. He wouldn't want someone walking out the door just cos the prospective buyer doesn't subsribe to his 'views'. Maybe the customer just didn't have the money to up his charging at the same time as he was installing the system and plans it as a future upgrade, which is fair. On the other hand, maybe the installer had no clue himself, and he believes that full-grown, black African males with raging hormones were meant to copluate with Vietnamese teens!! But if you get a dodo with no inkling, and averse to learning, you don't have much choice, do you? Please understand the possible attitude of the customer here, and not just the guy who's installing/ selling it being portrayed as a con job specialist.
So this was a complete answer with little extra. So what b&t said is that a 2000 watts rms system load cannot be handled with a stock alternater setup. It is true that if system is played loud enough for few min the battery will be discharged and it will start suffocating and amps will be pushing itself to the max to please his master till the master reduces the volume to let the battery charge for it next whiping session.

Ok anyways lets leave the master behind some time, the interval between the reading are approx 1 sec as it was taken from a cap display.

It is correct that given a bigger battery will give a little more listening time rest the situation will be remain the same.

For the real situation u suggested to go for a HO alternater with nealry 200 amps capacity. Now how did u thought of this ....hmmmm will talk later about it.

What if a person goes to a ICE shop and asks them to install a Bass system and the installer say it would cost u this much and he agree. thats all no further talk which stuff is going to be installed, what will be the rating of the stuff , will the voltage drop be there nothing.....

Last edited by low_bass_makker : 21st July 2006 at 17:34.
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Old 21st July 2006, 17:35   #19
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LBM, what is the point of your question?
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Old 21st July 2006, 17:38   #20
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LBM... Please indicate the VOLUME CONTROL LEVEL...

What is the HU in use and what is the volume you dialled in on it to get those readings....what are the crossover settings etc... what speakers are it driving.... blah blah blah...??

Everyone is curious about the point of this whole thing....

It is looking dangerously like devoloping into a whipping post.... why so much interest in this car... unless you know the installer and hate him!!

Last edited by kb100 : 21st July 2006 at 17:40.
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Old 21st July 2006, 17:42   #21
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My question is that in a car install with more than 2000 watts rms amps installed will the stock car charging system will able to produce the juice to run it without any problem......

Or we have to put in some other enhacements like double battery or HO alternater......
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Old 21st July 2006, 17:54   #22
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KB sir ji I said in my first post that I cannot declare any thing about the install , installer, end user. But I can surely tell that when the readings were taken the system was not clipping and the system was running flat with no enhacements like bass boost , as I have said earlier.

And can u please tell who is this everyone intersted leaving u .......

One more thing KB100 ICE or electronics it is my hobby and I love doing DIY. It is not like that I hate someone. We are grown up people. We all know what is right and what is wrong. This is a very childish statement that I hate him for this and that. Rest I think I am getting my answers and I am LEARNING everday from this forum. And I love staying here......
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Old 21st July 2006, 18:02   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
It is true that if system is played loud enough for few min the battery will be discharged and it will start suffocating and amps will be pushing itself to the max to please his master till the master reduces the volume to let the battery charge for it next whiping session.


Wowowow! That's some serious BDSM scene happening!! LBM I don't want to date YOU!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
What if a person goes to a ICE shop and asks them to install a Bass system and the installer say it would cost u this much and he agree. thats all no further talk which stuff is going to be installed, what will be the rating of the stuff , will the voltage drop be there nothing.....
Well, that does sound like a dodo, confronted by a trigger-happy European sailor on the coast of Mauritius!

Anyway here's a look at a few positive sides to the story.

1. A 2000W amp will probably make more money for the dealer than a 800-1000W amp. (this should have actually come last )

2. If the guy owning the system plays it at a volume level that draws only about 700-800 watts rms, then it's gonna last just as long as an amp thats rated at 700-800 watts rms to begin with.

3. The spare power can be used for headroom. The battery can deliver the 100-120 'peak amps' required for a transient, ably aided by a stiffening cap perhaps.

4. Your chances of the amp clipping are a bit higher if you used the lower power amp, the other amp will just starve of power and produce the same results, but you can still stop when your ear tells you to, and this can be optimized, rather than being limited as in the case of a lower power amplifier.

5. Since the customer now realizes that he's not exactly where he aspired to be, regardless of who is to blame, he still has the option of upgrading without discarding/ replacing any of the existing equipment.

Ok, now the suspense is really killing me. can we have the question please?
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Old 21st July 2006, 18:09   #24
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My question is

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
My question is that in a car install with more than 2000 watts rms amps installed will the stock car charging system will able to produce the juice to run it without any problem......

Or we have to put in some other enhacements like double battery or HO alternater......
One more thing there are multiple amps not a single one of 2000 watts.

And I would really like to meet u when I come to bombay in the coming times....
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Old 21st July 2006, 18:10   #25
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LBM... one question..., si the cap in series... or parallel.... and to what???

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
And can u please tell who is this everyone intersted leaving u .......
And opps... sorry... regarding the interest in knowing what "your question" is.. ..every person who has posted on this thread so far has asked you the same question... read up! (no Offence!!)

....I am saying the following things with respect to MY car..

I have an amp rated @ 120 amps... I am planning to add another @ 60 amps...

My car master fuse is rated at 120 amps.. So I guess my alternator is also of that amperage or will it be drastically lesser ?? - I really dont know - and the service engineer dint either:-)

Now - The Tru T03 does 1000 WRMS... the other amp I am contemplating will add another 400 Wrms..

In addition to this I have 140/100 headlamps... TWO stebel horns.. and perhpas might do a couple of neons too while installing... Lets see..

All in all I will comprehensively overwhelm my poor alternator... BUt logically thinking - While its technically possible to drive the ICE into stratosphere and overload everything I do not think the SPL generated by an 90 amp load will be possible to bear in the closed confines of a car.. Hence I had planned to have a 80 amp fuse with one amp.. now if I do two amps I might up it a lil... but do not think I will ever get into a situation where more than 120 amps is going to be called for...

You did mention this is NOT a DEMO CAR... then dont you think around 1000W is more than enought to frighten and shake even his forthcoming generations enconded as they are in natures' own thermidor.. (aping B&T here... at least attempting to... lol) .. the rest of it can be headroom..??...

The way I see it... So long as his car is moving - NO problem... if the car stalls - THEN you have a problem... TILL THEN.....

Donnu if my thinking is right....

Last edited by kb100 : 21st July 2006 at 18:20.
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Old 21st July 2006, 18:13   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
KB sir ji I said in my first post that I cannot declare any thing about the install , installer, end user. But I can surely tell that when the readings were taken the system was not clipping and the system was running flat with no enhacements like bass boost , as I have said earlier.
Sir, what are you meaning by clipping? When the amp is driven to deliver the rated power without there being adequate input power, the amp will distort. Did you mean that there was no audible distortion?

You don't always need to have bass boost, or any sort of equalization applied to run an amp into clipping. Incorrectly matched gains, higher than normal levels of recordings etc will also result in clipping.

And can u please tell who is this everyone intersted leaving u .......

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
One more thing KB100 ICE or electronics it is my hobby and I love doing DIY. It is not like that I hate someone. We are grown up people. We all know what is right and what is wrong. This is a very childish statement that I hate him for this and that. Rest I think I am getting my answers and I am LEARNING everday from this forum. And I love staying here......
And how we love you for loving and pursuing your hobby sir! You have no clue! Uh... we = KB, ok?
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Old 21st July 2006, 18:27   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
And how we love you for loving and pursuing your hobby sir! You have no clue! Uh... we = KB, ok?

Hear Hear!!... LBM Fan Club membership swells!!.... lol...

but man... we all know your passion... but dont know your question....!!

... LIke B& T said -- Dont SUSPEND us like this... pls shed some light on it!
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Old 21st July 2006, 18:27   #28
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[quote=kb100]LBM... one question..., si the cap in series... or parallel.... and to what???
[\quote]

Kya boss? Cap series mein? High-pass filter design, huh?

"Parallel to what" bole to? Mamu, everything is parallel to everything na? Amp is parallel to head unit is parallel to headlamps is parallel to cap is parallel to wiper is parallel to active crossover, and all are 'pyarelal' to battery and alternator yaar! Only resistive loads in all paths are different due to cable length, chassis resistance etc. Uske liye to amps ko 7 mein ground karte hain!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb100
All in all I will comprehensively overwhelm my poor alternator... BUt logically thinking - While its technically possible to drive the ICE into stratosphere and overload everything I do not think the SPL generated by an 90 amp load will be possible to bear in the closed confines of a car.. Hence I had planned to have a 80 amp fuse with one amp.. now if I do two amps I might up it a lil... but do not think I will ever get into a situation where more than 120 amps is going to be called for...
Donnu if my thinking is right
Dude, you have a Tru, get a performance battery. It's not just about more power. The electrons are also well behaved. Trust me.

As far as the fusing is concerned, use the exact same rating inline as the ones on the side of the amp. Not less than that. Yohan contractor once said in AV Max "The best thing to do is to put a fuse 5A less than that on the device you are connecting it for". So what do you do if you bought a primitive Pioneer GM62 amp with a original fuse of 5A?????
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Old 21st July 2006, 18:35   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Kya boss? Cap series mein? High-pass filter design, huh?

"Parallel to what" bole to? Mamu, everything is parallel to everything na? Amp is parallel to head unit is parallel to headlamps is parallel to cap is parallel to wiper is parallel to active crossover, and all are 'pyarelal' to battery and alternator yaar! Only resistive loads in all paths are different due to cable length, chassis resistance etc. Uske liye to amps ko 7 mein ground karte hain!
DEKHA>.. this is what happens when you listen to LOCAL installerss... Called up one guy here with LBM "Q" ... and he wanted me to find this out.... Ab mai gaya uska waaat lagaane!! ... lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
Dude, you have a Tru, get a performance battery. It's not just about more power. The electrons are also well behaved. Trust me.

Karta hai Man... Karta hai... Waiting for this one to die first... then its the Yellow Top for me!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
As far as the fusing is concerned, use the exact same rating inline as the ones on the side of the amp. Not less than that. Yohan contractor once said in AV Max "The best thing to do is to put a fuse 5A less than that on the device you are connecting it for". So what do you do if you bought a primitive Pioneer GM62 amp with a original fuse of 5A?????

Matlab.. Tru has no internal fuse... they recommend 120 amps inline .. some 15 inches from teh Batt... So am I okay in doing 80 amps??... other than that I cant juice it completely, what are the fallouts - if any?

Last edited by kb100 : 21st July 2006 at 18:38.
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Old 21st July 2006, 18:42   #30
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People slow down. I had read KB post and was on tru site for the spec and i came back hoho there is already exchange of info here. any ways i have never seen caps in series in a power circuit of a car audio.

And about ur install u will not be needing any thing to upgrade. as suggested by B&T only a hi performance battery will do a good job. I know U will not be pushing ur system loud enough so that i can hear it here in delhi....lol



B&T yes audible distortion was not there and also I cannot change the gain as it was not my car and i did not wanna mess with the orignal setting done by the installer. one thing i wanna add is that there was more head room left as i can further increase the volume without distortion but it was enough to took the reading If i had increased the voulme further the reading would have been in the range of 8-10 volts .......lol
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