Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > In-Car Entertainment


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 20th August 2006, 13:27   #241
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 978
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
I don't see what you mean by 'if the wire oxidizes easily'. If the resistance of the 2 wires of the same gage is exactly equal, it means that the grade of copper used is the same. There is no other variable factor there, unless it's external.
I am no metallurgy expert, but my limited knowledge and gut feeling tells me that you might be right.

Quote:
So if it's the same grade of copper, one has the same vulnerability to oxidation as the other.
I differ here. I think the vulnerability is mainly decided by an external factor, how much exposed the conductor is to air (oxygen). Copper won't oxidize if it is well isolated, be it OFC or ordinary. It depends on another important and integral part of a cable- how good the insulation is. OFC only has slightly lower resistance which means little less thickness for an equivalent wire, which doesn't have much practical significance. Note that oxygen-free just means exactly that, it doesn't mean "oxidation"-free, does it?

Quote:
So that still falls in the 'decent' category. And if it doesn't, it falls in the OFC category. What say? And from your earlier definition, a wire is a wire is a wire as long as the resistivity of the copper is the same, so if you have OFC wire with the same resistivity the 'decent' wire, isn't that better wire with same resistance to current? Money well spent? No?
Sorry, I am not sure what you meant. Which one do you think is "money well spent"... Rs0.5/m or 'decent' or OFC ?? please elaborate further
santosh.s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th August 2006, 13:35   #242
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 978
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbir
Dude that describes more than just heat shrink tubes... hehehe

Anyways, here's a pic for what B&T just described... cuz I know the way you guys think
may be he could have added a line - it is open on both sides!

by the way, does it really shrink as the name suggests... upon being subjected to heat?

Last edited by santosh.s : 20th August 2006 at 13:37.
santosh.s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th August 2006, 20:02   #243
Senior - BHPian
 
Bass&Trouble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 2,744
Thanked: 71 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
I differ here. I think the vulnerability is mainly decided by an external factor, how much exposed the conductor is to air (oxygen). Copper won't oxidize if it is well isolated, be it OFC or ordinary. It depends on another important and integral part of a cable- how good the insulation is. OFC only has slightly lower resistance which means little less thickness for an equivalent wire, which doesn't have much practical significance. Note that oxygen-free just means exactly that, it doesn't mean "oxidation"-free, does it?
If you want to compare a OFC cable with a non-OFC cable, it's just got to do with the actual copper core. I don't see why you are considering external factors. If the copper core is not insulated, even OFC cable will oxidise. OFC means that the copper is inherently free of oxygen, not that it is not susceptible to oxidising if in contact with atmospheric air. I hope you understand. If exposed to air, OFC and regular copper cables are the same. So external factors are not really a consideration. it just means that OFC cables have a higher resistance to oxidation even under ideal ccircumstances compared to regular oxygen free copper core cables.
Bass&Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th August 2006, 20:05   #244
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Sam Kapasi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mumbai (but wat
Posts: 6,989
Thanked: 1,453 Times
Default

B&T, I'm just taking a moment out to remark about the quality of your post with regards to cabling. Well said and very informative.

Enjoy your time in Mahabalipuram, i can imagine it must be very beautiful this time of the year.
Sam Kapasi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st August 2006, 08:57   #245
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 978
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
If the copper core is not insulated, even OFC cable will oxidise. OFC means that the copper is inherently free of oxygen, not that it is not susceptible to oxidising if in contact with atmospheric air. I hope you understand.
Yes, I can understand... because even I was trying to make the same point

Quote:
If exposed to air, OFC and regular copper cables are the same.
OK... we are on the same page

Quote:
it just means that OFC cables have a higher resistance to oxidation even under ideal ccircumstances compared to regular oxygen free copper core cables.
That is an important point...
but what is the difference between OFC and "regular oxygen free copper core"? I think it was a typo and you actually meant "regular coppoer", right?

What did you mean by ideal circumstances... air tight? If so, did you mean that even if insulation is good (i.e. air tight), the oxygen present in normal copper would make it more succeptible to oxidation or it will continue to oxidize copper forever? Its hard to believe because the amount of oxygen is very less, and more importantlyoxygen supply is limited since we have air tight insulation. How do you explain that?
santosh.s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st August 2006, 17:37   #246
Senior - BHPian
 
Bass&Trouble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 2,744
Thanked: 71 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s

That is an important point...
but what is the difference between OFC and "regular oxygen free copper core"? I think it was a typo and you actually meant "regular coppoer", right?
You're right, that is a typo. I meant 'regular copper'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
What did you mean by ideal circumstances... air tight? If so, did you mean that even if insulation is good (i.e. air tight), the oxygen present in normal copper would make it more succeptible to oxidation or it will continue to oxidize copper forever? Its hard to believe because the amount of oxygen is very less, and more importantlyoxygen supply is limited since we have air tight insulation. How do you explain that?
Yes, the 'regular copper' core would have limited amounts of oxygen. The amount of oxidation would be negligible compared to that if the cable were exposed to directly to free oxygen in the atmosphere. But if you were to be a perfectionist to the extent that you seal off the exposed ends of your wire with solder and heat shrink, you don't want some intrinsic oxygen molecules to spoil your party, I'd suppose. And so, a OFC grade cable would lend you peace of mind.

Just to add, the regular copper cable would probably remain in mint condition until you install it in your setup, and when in a packed state, it may resemble the OFC version. The difference starts once you have free electrons flowing through the copper (the audio signal or power).
Bass&Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st August 2006, 20:08   #247
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 978
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
you don't want some intrinsic oxygen molecules to spoil your party, I'd suppose. And so, a OFC grade cable would lend you peace of mind.
But the big question is: will it spoil the party? Is your assumption based on any facts that you believe in or just the sense of having peace? This is what I believe- once an oxygen molecule has done its job, it will stop then and there, right? It won't go on spoiling any more, unless there are more oxygen molecules supplied.

Quote:
Just to add, the regular copper cable would probably remain in mint condition until you install it in your setup, and when in a packed state, it may resemble the OFC version. The difference starts once you have free electrons flowing through the copper (the audio signal or power).
Again, any supporting facts on how exactly the difference is supposed to start?

BTW, here is a link which claims that OFC is mostly found in personal setups, while even professional studios don't use it. Surprising enough! One can find many other articles about cables there.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...nstruction.php
santosh.s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2006, 09:22   #248
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 389
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Hi Folks
I am getting the vehicle tomorrow - hopefully keeping my fingers crossed. The dealer is providing me with an MP3 PLayer Blaupunkt Monterrey MP35. But i dont want that since I want a Pioneer 6850 which has 3 preamp outs unlike the MP35 which has only 2. When i asked among my friends about an exchange for the pioneer, they said that I would not get much for the Blaupunkt MP35 since this is an OEM peice and hence has no resale value. They said at the max 2-3K is what i should expect. What say guys.
jinu_joseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2006, 11:47   #249
Distinguished - BHPian
 
jkdas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Thiruvananthapu
Posts: 9,661
Thanked: 1,389 Times
Default

3k ! thats funny. If it was a used Hu then the price was ok.
jkdas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2006, 12:08   #250
Senior - BHPian
 
esteem_lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Madras/Py
Posts: 7,554
Thanked: 445 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu_joseph
Hi Folks
I am getting the vehicle tomorrow - hopefully keeping my fingers crossed. The dealer is providing me with an MP3 PLayer Blaupunkt Monterrey MP35. But i dont want that since I want a Pioneer 6850 which has 3 preamp outs unlike the MP35 which has only 2. When i asked among my friends about an exchange for the pioneer, they said that I would not get much for the Blaupunkt MP35 since this is an OEM peice and hence has no resale value. They said at the max 2-3K is what i should expect. What say guys.
i think thats right. resale values for oem hu is very bad. this will be sold only in the 2nd hand market where the buyer has a budget around that mark. or u need to find a specific buyer urself & try to push it for 4-5k.
esteem_lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2006, 12:10   #251
Senior - BHPian
 
esteem_lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Madras/Py
Posts: 7,554
Thanked: 445 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi
B&T, I'm just taking a moment out to remark about the quality of your post with regards to cabling. Well said and very informative.

Quote:
Enjoy your time in Mahabalipuram, i can imagine it must be very beautiful this time of the year
.
yes, sam, he is enjoying his time here. i know that one for sure. what say, B & T ???
esteem_lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2006, 13:23   #252
Distinguished - BHPian
 
jkdas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Thiruvananthapu
Posts: 9,661
Thanked: 1,389 Times
Default

Jinu; keep the HU. If its the Monte one then you got teh info wrong
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-iWyzi9g...p?I=023MONTERR
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-iWyzi9g...023MONTERR#Tab
http://www.cardomain.com/item/BLAMNTREYMP35

it has 3 pair of preamp outs ( 2+1)

@ esteem , use the EDIT option rather than making multiple posts, that too with long quotes.

Last edited by jkdas : 22nd August 2006 at 13:26.
jkdas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2006, 13:52   #253
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 389
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Hi jkdas, thank you so much for this info.. I owe you one.. I had misread the description on the india catlog.
jinu_joseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2006, 14:30   #254
Senior - BHPian
 
Bass&Trouble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 2,744
Thanked: 71 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
But the big question is: will it spoil the party? This is what I believe- once an oxygen molecule has done its job, it will stop then and there, right? It won't go on spoiling any more, unless there are more oxygen molecules supplied.
Sir, like you say 'we are back on the same page'. Unfortunately, it's Page 1.

You said resistance is not desirable. I agree.

The oxygen molecule does it's job once. One million oxygen molecules do the job once, to cumulatively account for two million molecules of cuprous oxide (i don't think it will oxidise to cupric) since it takes two atoms of copper per molecule of oxygen. Whatever that number is, the oxygen is gone, but the cuprous oxide remains. In fact, oxygen is added to the copper in it's molten form usually to remove other impurities originating from the ore, with which it more readily reacts.

Wires made without very stringent quality processes would have higher unreacted oxygen molecules in them. This is merely cheaper, not cheapest. The cheapest ones probably may not even have oxygen in them, but tons of other impurities and probably their oxides too. This is really bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s

Is your assumption based on any facts that you believe in or just the sense of having peace?
It's not an assumption at all. I happened to study two subjects on Material Science and Metallurgy in my engineering school, although very involuntarily. I hated it. I actually wish I had forgotten all of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
Again, any supporting facts on how exactly the difference is supposed to start?
Oxides of copper increase resistivity, under the circumstances that we are only regarding oxygen as the impurity, no other substance. What exact difference?
Bass&Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2006, 14:31   #255
Senior - BHPian
 
Bass&Trouble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 2,744
Thanked: 71 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover
yes, sam, he is enjoying his time here. i know that one for sure. what say, B & T ???
Oh yeah.. you can say that again!
Bass&Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q! Sam Kapasi In-Car Entertainment 13577 11th December 2017 18:05
Suggestion with my Old Audio System into new car mezereo In-Car Entertainment 4 29th March 2008 01:49
BlueTooth Car Audio System + Security System venky6009 In-Car Entertainment 1 2nd November 2007 04:45
suggestion for octi - car audio ibe In-Car Entertainment 6 18th July 2005 10:22


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 21:57.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks