Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > In-Car Entertainment


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 23rd August 2006, 15:06   #256
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 978
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
Sir, like you say 'we are back on the same page'.
I am raising questions and you are the teacher who is answering, so better I call you Sir

Quote:
Unfortunately, it's Page 1.
helpless... you have got a dumb student!

Quote:
You said resistance is not desirable. I agree.
this is page no. 1, so lets move on...

Quote:
The oxygen molecule does it's job once. One million oxygen molecules do the job once, to cumulatively account for two million molecules of cuprous oxide
Yes, but two million bad molecules should not be counted when there are several trillion good ones. Though million is a big count, it does not translate to high proportion.


Quote:
(i don't think it will oxidise to cupric) since it takes two atoms of copper per molecule of oxygen. Whatever that number is, the oxygen is gone, but the cuprous oxide remains. In fact, oxygen is added to the copper in it's molten form usually to remove other impurities originating from the ore, with which it more readily reacts.

Wires made without very stringent quality processes would have higher unreacted oxygen molecules in them. This is merely cheaper, not cheapest. The cheapest ones probably may not even have oxygen in them, but tons of other impurities and probably their oxides too. This is really bad.



It's not an assumption at all. I happened to study two subjects on Material Science and Metallurgy in my engineering school, although very involuntarily. I hated it. I actually wish I had forgotten all of this.
I am lucky, I have already forgotton everything! Many people hate subjects like chemistry and metallurgy (I am no exception) simply because logic doesn't apply there most of the time making them boaring. I was talking only at preliminary level where simple logic should apply, I think. No?



Quote:
Oxides of copper increase resistivity, under the circumstances that we are only regarding oxygen as the impurity, no other substance. What exact difference?
difference which starts when current flows
santosh.s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2006, 15:40   #257
Senior - BHPian
 
Bass&Trouble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 2,744
Thanked: 71 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
I am raising questions and you are the teacher who is answering, so better I call you Sir

helpless... you have got a dumb student!
Uh, hope we won't take this role-playing stuff too far, ok? And in case you wish to, we could call LBM to continue on my behalf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
this is page no. 1, so lets move on...
... is my prayer to thee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
Yes, but two million bad molecules should not be counted when there are several trillion good ones. Though million is a big count, it does not translate to high proportion.
Uh, over 200 ppm of oxygen in copper is regarded unhealthy. Quick, turn the page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
I was talking only at preliminary level where simple logic should apply, I think. No?
So, all that effort was in vain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
difference which starts when current flows
Some heat makes for cosy lovemaking between Copper and Oxygen.
Bass&Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 12:14   #258
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 978
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
Uh, hope we won't take this role-playing stuff too far, ok? And in case you wish to, we could call LBM to continue on my behalf.
whats wrong in calling somebody a teacher (guru)? on the other hand its a matter of expressing gratitude and respect in fact... not role playing. Anyway, I won't do that if you don't like.

Quote:
... is my prayer to thee.



Uh, over 200 ppm of oxygen in copper is regarded unhealthy. Quick, turn the page.
My initial query wasn't that complex I believe. I am sorry for creating the confusion and making the discussion turn little sour. Give me an another chance to make it as clear and precise as I can make it:

1. We are comparing effect of only oxygen in copper speaker cables, so leave aside other impurities which may be present in dirt cheap wires.

2. OFC has zero ppm oxygen and normal wire has some reacted/unreacted oxygen which makes it "unhealthy".Lets say this eventually increases normal wire's resistivity by X times, and we compensate it by making it thicker wire with cross section area X time higher than that of OFC, so both wires have equal total resistance now. I used the word "eventually" in order to spare some time for unreacted oxygen to do its job. I intend to say some time in the beginning of lifetime of the cable, which starts ticking right at completion of production through its stay at stockists/dealers/retailers etc, through your installation and finally some initial period of actual use. I am expecting and assuming here that even if the normal copper had oxygen bubbles inside (which is unlikely even for dirt cheap wires), that time should not be more than what I mentioned, in other words I think it will be quite less compared to total lifetime of actual usage.

3. I repeat, insulation is is excellent in both wires, no air reaches the conductor.

Now, if you keep using these two wires thereafter under similar conditions then how is the normal wire more susceptible to oxidation?

Quote:
So, all that effort was in vain.
simple logic generally makes more sense than complex ones.
complex one should be used only if simple one is not enough.
simple logic does not mean stupid/worthless and similarly complex logic does not imply something highly intellectual or useful... it could also be a mess up!


Quote:
Some heat makes for cosy lovemaking between Copper and Oxygen.
This statement made maximum sense in your entire post, to me. OK, how much do you think will be the temp. raise caused by current flowing through an adequately sized speaker wire, during its normal operation? and then compare it with the temperature of molten copper during production...so how much practical relevance should it be given?
santosh.s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 12:39   #259
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Sam Kapasi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mumbai (but wat
Posts: 6,989
Thanked: 1,452 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
My initial query wasn't that complex I believe. I am sorry for creating the confusion and making the discussion turn little sour.
Au contraire, I do not believe this discussion is sour at all. I percieve it as a healthy debate on a topic most relevant to In car entertainment.
Santosh, you are relatively newer here, hence not quite used to B&T's humour. I assure you, we (those who follow and understand) are enjoying this debate thoroughly.
The rest just think you guys are mad.
Sam Kapasi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 12:43   #260
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Faridabad
Posts: 6,814
Thanked: 294 Times
Default

it will be healthy one till I jump in to make it a mess.......lol
low_bass_makker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 12:45   #261
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Sam Kapasi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mumbai (but wat
Posts: 6,989
Thanked: 1,452 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
it will be healthy one till I jump in to make it a mess.......lol
Unfortunately, I must gravely nod here. Apna LBM specializes in stirring up threads till they are closed. You guys seems to be doing just great. Carry on!!
Once LBM starts shedding light, there will be darkness for a while
Sam Kapasi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 12:58   #262
Senior - BHPian
 
Bass&Trouble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 2,744
Thanked: 71 Times
Default

Firstly, let me clarify, in case you havent been following many posts from me, that I usually interlace some humor with facts, and I expect you to be able to identify that. Please dont take nothing personally. It's sometimes accompanied by smileys, but it takes away the fun if it's supposed to be hardcore sarcasm. <<-- appropriate here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
whats wrong in calling somebody a teacher (guru)? on the other hand its a matter of expressing gratitude and respect in fact... not role playing. Anyway, I won't do that if you don't like.
I think you took that statement of mine a bit too seriously. LBM is also as straight as a hibernating snake. (Uh, wrong example)

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
2. OFC has zero ppm oxygen and normal wire has some reacted/unreacted oxygen which makes it "unhealthy".Lets say this eventually increases normal wire's resistivity by X times, and we compensate it by making it thicker wire with cross section area X time higher than that of OFC, so both wires have equal total resistance now. I used the word "eventually" in order to spare some time for unreacted oxygen to do its job. I intend to say some time in the beginning of lifetime of the cable, which starts ticking right at completion of production through its stay at stockists/dealers/retailers etc, through your installation and finally some initial period of actual use. I am expecting and assuming here that even if the normal copper had oxygen bubbles inside (which is unlikely even for dirt cheap wires), that time should not be more than what I mentioned, in other words I think it will be quite less compared to total lifetime of actual usage.
So, what is the question?

Anyway, one part that you rightly said yourself is that, to overcome the inadequacies of such wire caused by loss of conductivity for the required rated wire gauge, it sometimes calls for a higher gauge wire to be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
Now, if you keep using these two wires thereafter under similar conditions then how is the normal wire more susceptible to oxidation?
Because there is no oxygen in one and oxygen in the other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
simple logic generally makes more sense than complex ones.
complex one should be used only if simple one is not enough.
simple logic does not mean stupid/worthless and similarly complex logic does not imply something highly intellectual or useful... it could also be a mess up!
The above statement would be fitting for a poster on the walls of the urinals in Cinemax. They also have She Sells Sea Shells onna Sea Shore etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
This statement made maximum sense in your entire post, to me. OK, how much do you think will be the temp. raise caused by current flowing through an adequately sized speaker wire, during its normal operation? and then compare it with the temperature of molten copper during production...so how much practical relevance should it be given?
I said oxygen is 'added' in molten state. That is for a purpose. In the molten state, although oxygen has a chance to react with copper, it more readily reacts with like sulphur and some other stuff, i think hydrogen, maybe not but whatever, and these form gases and come out from the lava. After that purification, oxygen is unwanted, cos then it reacts with the copper. So if your wire has oxygen that's not wanted.

And while we're at it, I firmly believe that wires and metallurgy as applied to audio is a bit more advanced than even I make of it, let alone you. There are cables which are designed to reject electrostatic and electrmagnetic noise filtration, bandwidth restricting mechanisms to optimize signal carriage, some with networks built into them to correct group delay etc. OFC copper is the foundation stone. Nevertheless, I earlier mentioned that it isn't justified for every user to buy super high-end cables, the need (or lack thereof) has to be identified. But it does not mean that these guys are just taking people for a ride. No way!

Just as a clarification, I am not affiliated with anything to do with OFC or upward cables. In fact, if the need arises, I use Tamagachi cables (I can see LBM furiously googling, chill pal I just made that up myself! ). But I see reason for everything to exist.
Bass&Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 12:59   #263
Senior - BHPian
 
Bass&Trouble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 2,744
Thanked: 71 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
it will be healthy one till I jump in to make it a mess.......lol
Please don't dive in till the copper solidifies, as it is we have enough impurities to deal with. And there's a slim chance you'll react with oxygen, you'll probably need iridium.
Bass&Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 13:00   #264
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 389
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s
Lets say this eventually increases normal wire's resistivity by X times, and we compensate it by making it thicker wire with cross section area X time higher than that of OFC, so both wires have equal total resistance now.
Santosh its not that simple, when you start increasing the core size of the cable you have other problems like skin effect (something i learnt on this forum, thanks to Navinji ) which further increases resistance of the wire. This offcourse can be mitigated by using litz wire or multithread core. You will also have problems with flexibility of wire, which is a problem if you have to run it thru tight places. So while you can achieve equal resisitivity results the net usabilty might be in question.

Last edited by jinu_joseph : 24th August 2006 at 13:05.
jinu_joseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 13:05   #265
Senior - BHPian
 
Bass&Trouble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 2,744
Thanked: 71 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu_joseph
Santosh its not that simple, when you start increasing the core size of the cable you have other problems like skin effect which further increases resistance of the wire. This offcourse can be mitigated by using litz wire or multithread core. You will also have problems with flexibility of wire, which is a problem if you have to run it thru tight places.
You're right Jinu, but I think what he meant was addition of more strands of the same wire gauge to eventually contribute to a larger overall wire gauge. But that's an approach of excesses, and certainly not the right approach.

Last edited by Bass&Trouble : 24th August 2006 at 13:14.
Bass&Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 13:09   #266
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 389
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
I said oxygen is 'added' in molten state. That is for a purpose. In the molten state, although oxygen has a chance to react with copper, it more readily reacts with like sulphur and some other stuff, i think hydrogen, maybe not but whatever, and these form gases and come out from the lava.
Man .. this thread is getting hotter and hotter by the minute....
jinu_joseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 13:22   #267
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Faridabad
Posts: 6,814
Thanked: 294 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
Please don't dive in till the copper solidifies, as it is we have enough impurities to deal with. And there's a slim chance you'll react with oxygen, you'll probably need iridium.
I will not shed light here because the light has already been shed ......

I will stay away from this as it will make things hotter and then oxygen will come and react with the copper and thus makin the OFC to OWC (oxygen with copper)......


Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu_joseph
Man .. this thread is getting hotter and hotter by the minute....
see the effects already........
low_bass_makker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2006, 13:30   #268
Senior - BHPian
 
esteem_lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Madras/Py
Posts: 7,554
Thanked: 445 Times
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
You're right Jinu, but I think what he meant was addition of more strands of the same wire gauge to eventually contribute to a larger overall wire gauge. But that's an approach of excesses, and certainly not the right approach.
santosh and B & T, u guys make me feel like i am sitting in a chemistry class, the bright student (Santosh) getting into an argument with the lecturer.
this is the last thing we need in this forum. and this figures in the thread called "Suggestions for a new car audio". guys, please read that again, will you ?
esteem_lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2006, 18:11   #269
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 389
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

My car will arrive tomorrow, spoke to an installer who was did not have JBLs in ready stock so was trying to push other brands anyways finally said he could give me the following prices:
1. JBL GTO 607c - 6200
2. JBL GTO 527 - 3800
3. JBL GTO 75.4 - 14000
4. GTO 1204B - 7800

He said he did not have MOnster or Connexion Audison cables and they would take time to procure. Said he had some other imported brands like Kieker (not sure of the spelling), O2 (Refers to it as Oxygen).

Folks are the prices correct. Also are these cables reputed and good or a ripoff. ??
jinu_joseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2006, 18:51   #270
Senior - BHPian
 
kb100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bangy Boy!
Posts: 1,554
Thanked: 14 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover
santosh and B & T, u guys make me feel like i am sitting in a chemistry class, the bright student (Santosh) getting into an argument with the lecturer.
this is the last thing we need in this forum. and this figures in the thread called "Suggestions for a new car audio". guys, please read that again, will you ?
OH Esteem Lover... you could'nt be farther from reality!..

Nothing in this world of ours would have been possible without such "bright" "questioning" minds.. and like Sam had pointed out somewhere - all of love a good argument! - whereupon people go into the trouble of writing posts that contain a lot of information that would have otherwise NOT come out (laziness!!)

The thread is about "Suggestions for a new car audio"... and good cables DO form a part of that!

Last edited by kb100 : 25th August 2006 at 19:07.
kb100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q! Sam Kapasi In-Car Entertainment 13577 11th December 2017 18:05
Suggestion with my Old Audio System into new car mezereo In-Car Entertainment 4 29th March 2008 01:49
BlueTooth Car Audio System + Security System venky6009 In-Car Entertainment 1 2nd November 2007 04:45
suggestion for octi - car audio ibe In-Car Entertainment 6 18th July 2005 10:22


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 20:35.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks