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Old 2nd August 2006, 10:35   #1
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Hi all,

Which ICE brands have still not come/avaliable to India??
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Old 2nd August 2006, 10:47   #2
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Yikes! Lets just say that while most major brands are available in metros like Mumbai many are not well represented across the contry. There are dozens of smaller brands that would find it very difficult to service a small market like India. Many European brands for example are often only well known only in their home country.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 12:55   #3
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as navin ji has said nearly all the brand are available in india at the metros but the highend stuff is very costly as compared to the forgien price.......like the price of dls iridium in US is nealry $800 (800 x 47 = 37600) but in india it is for 98000 ...... I hate this differnces.........
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Old 2nd August 2006, 13:18   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
as navin ji has said nearly all the brand are available in india at the metros but the highend stuff is very costly as compared to the forgien price.......like the price of dls iridium in US is nealry $800 (800 x 47 = 37600) but in india it is for 98000 ...... I hate this differnces.........
Some international sites sell their products at little over their cost. They realise their customers are DIYers who dont require any value addition. So they sell their products from a website, dont have much brick and mortar setups in terms of dealers etc. They dont even entertain phone calls. Business is only conducted by email. Such sites can afford to earn little on premium products as they have little to no overheads.

But just as an example, lets try calculating this. Add approx 10% Air freight, 40% Customs Duty and Clearing, Importer margin, Distributor margin, Dealer margin, VAT/CST, Octroi etc and you WILL come quite close to the figures quoted above. and this did not include advertising, promotion, warranty, and other business costs.

Some companies here do charge more than average for their product. Example, as provided by you, DLS. If you look at JBL / Infinity pricing however, you will find it is well balanced and fair. As is (we feel) our pricing for Hertz etc. example; we retail the US$400 HSK165 here for 14200.

Remember, it is a business. Nobody (except the govt really, and that too is debatable) is making a killing at any stage. Even with low margins (much lesser than industry standards abroad), this industry has chosen to mature and sell better brands and products.

You as customers can help by supporting the local vendors. This is the only way the industry will grow, and eventually equipment will become cheaper as economies of scale improve. If you feel (as in your case with DLS) the cost here is too high, talk to the company/dealer etc. They may be able to give you better pricing.

Last edited by gunbir : 2nd August 2006 at 13:24.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 13:22   #5
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I agree with u gunbir fully........

but one thing i wanna ask if the product sold in forgein is also having the margin of the disrtibuter and the dealer so why it is charged double again in india the cost diff in india should be of the customs, freight and local tax only ...... what say....

Last edited by low_bass_makker : 2nd August 2006 at 13:25.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 13:32   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
I agree with u gunbir fully........

but one thing i wanna ask if the product sold in forgein is also having the margin of the disrtibuter and the dealer so why it is charged double again in india the cost diff in india should be of the customs, freight and local tax only ...... what say....
Not really. Example: mobilesq.com

They are the importer and the retailer. so they avoid multiple margins and sell the product very cheap direct to the end-user. They dont realise their prices effect other places in the world... even as remote as India, where taxes are high and often multi-point and due to the structure of the country, multiple-tier distribution has to be setup.

Also, you will see the retail for the Iridium 6.3 is around $1000 in the US and AU$1500 in Australia. Which by all standards should retail for around INR 65-70k here, not 98k. It does appear PTC is charging an undue premium on this. However this is NOT our industry standard.

Again, to give you an example in similar price category, (for lack of another example) the Hertz Mille MLK2 set retails for around $1400 (IIRC) in the US, we retail it here for INR 82000 incl VAT etc. Is that not fair.

Last edited by gunbir : 2nd August 2006 at 13:42.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 14:50   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbir
Not really. Example: mobilesq.com

They are the importer and the retailer. so they avoid multiple margins and sell the product very cheap direct to the end-user. They dont realise their prices effect other places in the world... even as remote as India, where taxes are high and often multi-point and due to the structure of the country, multiple-tier distribution has to be setup.

Also, you will see the retail for the Iridium 6.3 is around $1000 in the US and AU$1500 in Australia. Which by all standards should retail for around INR 65-70k here, not 98k. It does appear PTC is charging an undue premium on this. However this is NOT our industry standard.

Again, to give you an example in similar price category, (for lack of another example) the Hertz Mille MLK2 set retails for around $1400 (IIRC) in the US, we retail it here for INR 82000 incl VAT etc. Is that not fair.
gunbir, all the e.gs given by you look pretty fair to me, but i think what low bass maker is trying to say is that why do the dealers/distributors/middlemen etc need to have huge margins ??? instead if the margins are lower & the products are better priced, there may be a few more guys willing to buy them.

in india, this seems to be the problem. the middlemen want to make more from less qty, like the autorickshaw guys in madras, who just want to fleece a couple of customers & sit back & relax the rest of the day. why not charge nominally & operate regularly..huh ??

the taxes & duties do make a difference to the price, but not to the extent prevailing. the products imported do not suffer any taxes in the country of origin, so that makes it a little cheaper than the price we see on their websites or price lists. also buying in bulk for distribution will definitely fetch a big discount. only to this low price is added the local taxes. so i believe the margins of the local dealers are the main reason for the big price difference.

phew!!! that was long & i am not quite finished yet


to cite an example for the above, the hyundai accent, which is priced around 6-7 lakhs here is exported to other countries by hyundai & the value of the car in the export documents is only between 1.7 to 2.4 lakhs. can u believe that. this is the basic price of the car before taxes & profit margins.

Last edited by esteem_lover : 2nd August 2006 at 14:56.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 17:50   #8
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esteem lover thanks for understanding my point and for the support......
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Old 2nd August 2006, 19:32   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover
gunbir, all the e.gs given by you look pretty fair to me, but i think what low bass maker is trying to say is that why do the dealers/distributors/middlemen etc need to have huge margins ??? instead if the margins are lower & the products are better priced, there may be a few more guys willing to buy them......
Esteem_lover,

If there are no sub-distributors in the chain how will products reach the corners of this country... If dealers dont have margins how will they maintain commercial spaces and parking, install bays, installation tools/equipment, installers, etc. As a customer you want a top notch install, but you dont want to pay for it.


Our middlemen do not have "huge" margins. Without getting into numbers, let me assure you, installers/retailers in India get a small fraction of the margin that installers get abroad. In fact we encourage our dealers to charge installation charges separately so that they dont feel the pinch and do quality installs. Trust me, it is because retailers in our country get paid lesser, that they resort to cheating customers with fake products and shoddy installs. If they get paid any lesser, they will shut shop and open another Nokia dukaan.

If we do away with retailers, where are you gonna audition ICE, will you buy direct from distributors. Who will install your stuff for you. Will the entire consumer population go DIY...

As for your car example it is our Govt who makes the most money here. Imported parts are charged duty upon and local parts are charged excise. Then the eventual product is further levied huge taxes and levies. The 50 rupee a liter petrol you buy there is almost 40-45% component that goes to the Govt. Why such high taxes? Cuz most of our countrymen do not want to pay their IT. So the Govt has to earn from elsewhere. To put this into perspective, the VAt in Denmark is 25%, Austria has 30% VAT. At 12.5% we have some of the lowest VAT in the world.

Bro, I am on your side. I am a consumer as well and I too feel the pinch. But I also try to understand why it is so...

Last edited by gunbir : 2nd August 2006 at 19:34.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 23:45   #10
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yup i support gunbir on this. he has said this very corretly. we all expect good installs and products . and i know that margins are also produced when the numbers are large and only when the demands for the porducts increase can be expect either localisation of popular products or some cuts on imports.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 00:20   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbir
Esteem_lover,
As a customer you want a top notch install, but you dont want to pay for it.

Without getting into numbers, let me assure you, installers/retailers in India get a small fraction of the margin that installers get abroad. In fact we encourage our dealers to charge installation charges separately so that they dont feel the pinch and do quality installs. Trust me, it is because retailers in our country get paid lesser, that they resort to cheating customers with fake products and shoddy installs.

If we do away with retailers, where are you gonna audition ICE, will you buy direct from distributors. Who will install your stuff for you. Will the entire consumer population go DIY...

As for your car example it is our Govt who makes the most money here. Imported parts are charged duty upon and local parts are charged excise. Then the eventual product is further levied huge taxes and levies. The 50 rupee a liter petrol you buy there is almost 40-45% component that goes to the Govt. Why such high taxes? Cuz most of our countrymen do not want to pay their IT. So the Govt has to earn from elsewhere. To put this into perspective, the VAt in Denmark is 25%, Austria has 30% VAT. At 12.5% we have some of the lowest VAT in the world.

Bro, I am on your side. I am a consumer as well and I too feel the pinch. But I also try to understand why it is so...
Every word! Rightly said Gunbir. No need to add anything from my side!
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Old 3rd August 2006, 00:48   #12
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Gunbir, I could not have put it in better words,
Also to throw some more light,
All the prices you see on eBay etc are sold almost at cost in USA, they make margins on shipping, when a person has a seller account with FedEx or UPS shipping about 100 + items per week, then they get great discounts on shipping, ans most average car audio components are shipped between $ 25 to $50, why ? to make money cos the price on eBay is almost cost or below cost at times, so it actually just costs a Dealer $8 to $10 to ship a set of Speakers anywhere in the U.S
I know this cos I travel very often there and do business with USA.
So esteem lover's theory on Distis in india getting huge discounts on Website Retail price is not correct.

Why do sellers do this thing in US ? cos sales numbers are very high, and they dont have to stock anything for long, so depriciation of goods value due to warehousing is practically NIL.
How often do you see a Rs20,000 + component speaker selling In an Indian Retail outlet, at times we have to stock it for months to even a year sometimes in very bad patch.
I know an eBay seller myself who sells More than 100 Subs a week, can you compare that to anyone retailing in India ?

Last edited by 929RON : 3rd August 2006 at 00:50.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 00:58   #13
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Just to add another thing, its a common concept among consumers that Imported High end Car Audio always have very thick margins, well not necessarily, cos, the easiest way to make money is to sell something that moves fast, JBL, Sony, Pioneer etc, Not RF, Focal, Kicker , IDMAX, Audiobahn etc. They sit around a lot longer than other fast moving products.
No Offence to anyone, but this is a fact, and as long as the consumer and seller have this understanding we are on the same page and in Business.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 01:00   #14
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That was some real good information 929RON... never thought about it!
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Old 3rd August 2006, 01:21   #15
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one more example the iridium end user sale price in india is INR 98k and in singapore it is INR 26k in this we have the dealer margin supplier margin taxes freight or any other margin one could have in there specific country . now why is the difference is of nearly 4 times. also in both the cases the product is with bill and warrenty and no installation charges are inculded.


Why it is so , even if the custom duty is of 40% why do we pay the extra 100% more ????????????
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