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Old 24th August 2006, 23:57   #31
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Phaji I also dont have it .....will try in my office comp....I think i have it there will post it tomm if i get it....
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Old 24th August 2006, 23:58   #32
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Originally Posted by gunbir
TI was asking for the plot from the JBL user manual... as I couldnt access it (actually I couldnt find it) on the JBL website..
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Old 25th August 2006, 00:03   #33
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Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
....In fact (if you agree), this sounds damn good on pro audio stuff, like in Discos and all ya know? Bloody electrifyingly trippy! And the subs in clubs don't even mostly play under 40Hz! But you have massive mid-bass drivers pulverising everything between 100 to 500 Hz, and horn-loaded compression drivers to take care of the rest. I don't regard this as SQ, and I had tried to bring this up once, but everyone told me that club sound is crap (Boo hoo! I love JBL, Turbo-Sound and Meyer pro setups).
Agreed. Ani, the JBL 15"er in a sealed box will work great if you can mate it to a great set of comps. And it will work well for all your music, including hip hop.

Thanks Sam...

Last edited by gunbir : 25th August 2006 at 00:07.
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Old 25th August 2006, 00:08   #34
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Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
... so that includes upbeat Lounge, all kinds of House/ Trance, Techno, DnB, Garage, Hardcore (not XXX, Sam, you wicked mind ) enjoys it best with a really attacking midbass and HF. The subs have to be kept to the bare minmum. Not overpowering the rest of the band, and yet strongly there when that bassline comes along.

...don't regard this as SQ, and I had tried to bring this up once, but everyone told me that club sound is crap (Boo hoo! ...
So what I'm trying to say (which I think I've partly forgotten thanks to some Grey Goose), ....
I simply like this fellow when he's drinking. Eloquent and funny. Too bad LBM and him split. No light shedding on that marriage and certainly, no load=shedding either, notwithstanding B&T's overdeveloped forearm.
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Old 25th August 2006, 00:13   #35
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B&T : Regarding club sounds, I would def, agree with you, people who crib will complain forever..... Iv heard some phat sounds indoors(overseas though) also it reminds me of the sound at one of the trance parties in goa a few years back... it was NYE 04 - 05. Instead of the usual stacks of sound they had a different setup that time around. You could "feel" the music all the way back of the field... simply amazing.

I have the older 6.5" JBL comps for the front, will run that of my old alpine 240

Your right about the sub, I dont plan on blowing it at all. After having to make do with the bass from the rear 6x9" for the last 1.5 years its time to treat myself to some nice subtle bass. My friend is allready excited about "blowing" up the neighbourhood but none of that for me... I just wanted to be able to get that little extra at those well constructed break-downs...
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Old 27th August 2006, 12:23   #36
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Thumbs up answers...finally !!!

Gunman has been kind enough to confirm that 6.5" can be accomodated in the front door of the santro.
Manual windows is not a problem as evident in the pictures provided by him in this thread

So I guess I dont need to waste time or money building the enclosure building, instead I can use the money for some dampening for the front doors




Though im curious in relation to the above enclosure, how would it affect SQ /stage ??

Last edited by s0uljah : 27th August 2006 at 12:26.
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Old 29th August 2006, 20:10   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah

I have the older 6.5" JBL comps for the front, will run that of my old alpine 240
Yeah, that's good to go with the JBL comps, no sweat at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Your right about the sub, I dont plan on blowing it at all. After having to make do with the bass from the rear 6x9" for the last 1.5 years its time to treat myself to some nice subtle bass. My friend is allready excited about "blowing" up the neighbourhood but none of that for me... I just wanted to be able to get that little extra at those well constructed break-downs...
If I read correctly in a previous post, you have too little power coming from the amp to actually 'blow' your sub. You'll just about have enough to get the 15" guy going. And that should be fine, I think. Just match the gains right and you should never run into clipping. Music sounds awful when you get to that.

Although not indicated in the plot, I would suppose that the recommended ported enclosure would lend some more spl in the bass without more input power, could be a good option if you think you could precisely supervise a carpenter. We have the box diagrams anyway, and all you need to verify the job is a measuring tape.

For the front (and this part is really important for house-boys, I am one), don't make a pod that doesn't open out into the door. Use the door's volume, and damp the door really well. The door usually resonates at the same frequency as the kick-line in most electronic music, and you hear like a muffled thud, accompanied by a whirring sound.. that is irritating. It should be nice, crisp and agile. One good way is to give plenty of power and ensure headroom (kicks are actually smaller transients, and take up the most continuous power when playing a dance music-ish waveform). Cut it nice and low on the crossover, like 80 Hz (you can cut off any 6" comp at 80 Hz, it only limits its loudness as compared to cutting off higher, hence use a powerful amp). Next, make sure you don't have air-leakages from the sides of the pod/ ring/ door panel. You should seal this after all the reinforcement went in.

Next, play with the subs cut-off frequency and slope till you find the sound as integrated as possible. Theoretically, if the comps are rolling off at 80Hz, it should be likewise for the sub so that their -3dB points co-incide. However, in reality, you may find that results vary thanks to the car's cabin help. Its also useful to have a head unit that allows you to use different slopes on the crossover.

Having done all this right, you should have a stomping system.
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Old 29th August 2006, 23:28   #38
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Default Amp is phool pawar!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
If I read correctly in a previous post, you have too little power coming from the amp to actually 'blow' your sub.

Although not indicated in the plot, I would suppose that the recommended ported enclosure would lend some more spl in the bass without more input power, could be a good option if you think you could precisely supervise a carpenter.
Iv made a typo on this thread another one regarding the power of the concerned amp. It is rated @ 1200 watts peak output. Should put out anywhere close to 1000 watt rms (or atleast I was told, no documentation). It is a powerful amp, this I know because I heard it driving components and rear fill. Even at high volumes the clarity from the mids were amazing, no distortion... (kenny G and some old school hiphop for demo). Im pretty sure if cranked up the speakers would get pushed to the limit and blow. Guess Im pretty safe going with sealed enclosure since juice from the amp will not be a major issue.

Also i just wanted to state that I havent been talking to a regular carpenter for the enclosure. Its a guy who builds speaker pods, planks, enclosures for the car accessory walla's... basically the source. So they have some experience with the buildling... I just need to make sure I get the required finished product. If I go with this custom option I plan on procuring quality connection terminals and pop them in the box instead of the local wire terminals these boys use.

Quote:
For the front (and this part is really important for house-boys, I am one), don't make a pod that doesn't open out into the door. Use the door's volume, and damp the door really well.
Yeah I was pretty convinced that instead of spending on pods I could use the money for dampening instead. The pics gunbir posted cleearly indicate that the speaker/magnet can go right in without a problem.

Quote:
The door usually resonates at the same frequency as the kick-line in most electronic music, and you hear like a muffled thud, accompanied by a whirring sound.. that is irritating. It should be nice, crisp and agile.
you obviously know that its all about the kick drum in these genre's, so take that away and your left with pretty much nothing to dance about!! Accurate sound is a priority and the delay in breakdowns is unacceptable. So no pods it is !!!!

Quote:
Next, make sure you don't have air-leakages from the sides of the pod/ ring/ door panel. You should seal this after all the reinforcement went in.
Now that Im kind of set on going with the speaker on the door, what would ensure securing the air-leakage? Also I was curious regarding the "baffle" gunbir has used in the vega install... helps to reduce vibration ?

Quote:
you may find that results vary thanks to the car's cabin help. Its also useful to have a head unit that allows you to use different slopes on the crossover.
Yeah, this is my greatest fear after sitting in some rides with bad ice. Uuncoordinated bass, and basically the music not being in sync. One things for sure... with the amount of questions Im badgering everyone with for just the install... you can imagine what the scene will be like when I get to fine tuning the sound

oh btw Im using th epioneer 7650 hu.

Quote:
Having done all this right, you should have a stomping system.
Its going to be possible with all the help Ive got from Sam, Gunbir, Navin, LBM, yourself and others, you know who you are !!

Thank You !

Last edited by s0uljah : 29th August 2006 at 23:29.
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Old 30th August 2006, 13:25   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Iv made a typo on this thread another one regarding the power of the concerned amp. It is rated @ 1200 watts peak output. Should put out anywhere close to 1000 watt rms (or atleast I was told, no documentation). It is a powerful amp, this I know because I heard it driving components and rear fill.
That's good then, one problem solved. Sealed response on the JBL looks nice and flat. (I know thats an averaged curve, but still)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Also i just wanted to state that I havent been talking to a regular carpenter for the enclosure. Its a guy who builds speaker pods, planks, enclosures for the car accessory walla's... basically the source. So they have some experience with the buildling... I just need to make sure I get the required finished product. If I go with this custom option I plan on procuring quality connection terminals and pop them in the box instead of the local wire terminals these boys use.
Those terminals are too fancy. You can get good ones from MX for far far cheaper. The one in the pic is a bi-wire cup, you need just two terminals (the sub is a SVC, right?). More money saved, credit to damping account.


Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Yeah I was pretty convinced that instead of spending on pods I could use the money for dampening instead. The pics gunbir posted cleearly indicate that the speaker/magnet can go right in without a problem.
Oh yeah, pods are good for kick-panels. Shoo them outta your car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
you obviously know that its all about the kick drum in these genre's, so take that away and your left with pretty much nothing to dance about!! Accurate sound is a priority and the delay in breakdowns is unacceptable. So no pods it is !!!!
Right on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Now that Im kind of set on going with the speaker on the door, what would ensure securing the air-leakage? Also I was curious regarding the "baffle" gunbir has used in the vega install... helps to reduce vibration ?
The baffle in the picture will not be required in your case. You will need a speaker ring with the exact sized speaker-sized cut-out. He has used the 'baffle' as a speaker adapter, I suppose, since the hole is larger (or irregular than the actual mounting diameter of the speaker. In your case, you are making the hole, not filling up one, so make it of the right size to begin with.

By sealing, I meant that the edges of the door panel be lined with a sealant to avoid air from the door coming into the cabin. Of course the speaker edge should be sealed too, to avoid front/ back wave cancellations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Yeah, this is my greatest fear after sitting in some rides with bad ice. Uuncoordinated bass, and basically the music not being in sync. One things for sure... with the amount of questions Im badgering everyone with for just the install... you can imagine what the scene will be like when I get to fine tuning the sound
We wish you luck with that. With a good pair of ears, and knowing what you're looking for, it shouldn't be as hard as you make it out to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
oh btw Im using th epioneer 7650 hu.
No Time Alignment
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Old 30th August 2006, 22:58   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
Those terminals are too fancy. You can get good ones from MX for far far cheaper. The one in the pic is a bi-wire cup, you need just two terminals (the sub is a SVC, right?). More money saved, credit to damping account.
Your right, thata bi-wireable binding post terminal. Pic was to just give an idea of the terminal.... Of course If I were to buy it would be for a single sub application... would cost me 400 bux. Please provide a link or some info regarding the MX connectors you mentioned ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
The baffle in the picture will not be required in your case. You will need a speaker ring with the exact sized speaker-sized cut-out.
Can use MDF rings for this........25 mm thickness good enough ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
By sealing, I meant that the edges of the door panel be lined with a sealant to avoid air from the door coming into the cabin. Of course the speaker edge should be sealed too, to avoid front/ back wave cancellations.
Will need to specify this if im at a local installer... thanks for pointing it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
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Yeah... no TA. Otherwise this hu pretty much kicks ***! I toyed with the idea of upgrading and had my eyes on an alpine. wont happen though. Not going to be able to spend anything on replacing HU anytime soon....

.
.
.

Now coming to a fresh question for the installers / DIY chaps here.... have you ever fitted fans to facilitate cooling down amps ?? Along with using atleast 4 gauge wirie (or thicker!!!) I was told to try and do this if possible. Get a 3" fan with atleast 0.14amp power

At the same time Im hoping to be able to mount the amp beneath the front so as to save wiring cost and also I guess it wont cause voltage drops.. so fitting a fan doesnt seem like it will be possible under the front seat !
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Old 30th August 2006, 23:01   #41
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Originally Posted by s0uljah
terminal.... would cost me 400 bux. Please provide a link or some info regarding the MX connectors you mentioned ??
The MX would cost about 55 bucks but would be nowhere near the quality of the AZcomp.
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Old 31st August 2006, 08:19   #42
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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi
The MX would cost about 55 bucks but would be nowhere near the quality of the AZcomp.
I suspect the builders use the MX connectors or something in that range. Since im getting a custom box I though I could use the money I save to invest in the terminals. It will be money well spent I reckon.

Now about the fans ?
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Old 31st August 2006, 18:13   #43
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Originally Posted by s0uljah
Please provide a link or some info regarding the MX connectors you mentioned ??
In Bangalore I don't know. In Bombay, Lamington Road zindabad. Maybe some place in Bangy where people go to buy electronics spares/ hardware? Sam said the quality is not comparable to whatever.. the thing is that it's well built compared to some really crummy connectors you get out there, and that's all you need to spend on a terminal cup for a system like this. It is robust and will last long. AND if anyone tells me that there will be a difference in sound quality in the MX and something else upwards of it, for the system in concern, I'll surely give up audio. After some proof accorded by a blind test, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Can use MDF rings for this........25 mm thickness good enough ?
Can use 12-18mm also. But choose thickness depending on how much you need to protrude the speaker to avoid the magnet from touching the rear glass etc, and to keep it from knocking into your shins. So it's basically a mounting consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Now coming to a fresh question for the installers / DIY chaps here.... have you ever fitted fans to facilitate cooling down amps ?? Along with using atleast 4 gauge wirie (or thicker!!!) I was told to try and do this if possible. Get a 3" fan with atleast 0.14amp power

At the same time Im hoping to be able to mount the amp beneath the front so as to save wiring cost and also I guess it wont cause voltage drops.. so fitting a fan doesnt seem like it will be possible under the front seat !
Usually amps don't need external fans unless you've mounted them in a rather suffocating space, or if you're doing something weird with them (like trying to run em 0.5-1 ohm below stable impedance). Use proper mains and earthing cables and you should be good. 4 ga in your case is fine. There shouldn't be any trouble.
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Old 31st August 2006, 18:35   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
Usually amps don't need external fans unless you've mounted them in a rather suffocating space, or if you're doing something weird with them (like trying to run em 0.5-1 ohm below stable impedance). Use proper mains and earthing cables and you should be good. 4 ga in your case is fine. There shouldn't be any trouble.

Yes B&T, I was cautioned as they consider India very veyr very hot place. hehe. Currently the sony 502 under my seat seems to be doing fine. Also correct me if Im wrong but I doubt I can get 4ga in small quantities ? 4ga will probably cost me a fortune... also :(

Now this brings me to another part of my ICEing budget - cabling !

Equipment :

Amplifiers :
  • 4 channel x 1
  • 2 channel x 1 (bridging for sub)
Speakers :
  • Front - 6.5" comps
  • Rear - 6x9"
With the above mentioned equipment I reckon I will require
  • Amplifier wiring kit * 2 (one per amp)
  • RCA * 4
  • Power cables * ? quantity
  • Speaker wire * 20 metres (for santro?)
In addition to cabling I guess I need
  • distribution block
  • fuse holder
Now its time for the ice heads to work out some options for me & PRICING. I know budget doesnt mean a thing to any of you but do keep in mind that Im not looking at cheap cheap boss.. neither do I want platinum !!! hehe

Approximate pricing for each of the mentioned items would be reaaaaaaaaly helpful... prices I can expect to pay in India that is... for everything else I can google
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Old 31st August 2006, 18:52   #45
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Originally Posted by s0uljah
Yes B&T, I was cautioned as they consider India very veyr very hot place. hehe.
No sweat, pun not intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah
Currently the sony 502 under my seat seems to be doing fine. Also correct me if Im wrong but I doubt I can get 4ga in small quantities ? 4ga will probably cost me a fortune... also :(
Of course you can, no one buys a 100 foot spool for 5 m of wire.
And ideally you should get a 4-ga amp wiring kit. It would set you back by about 3-4k I would reckon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by souljah
  • Amplifier wiring kit * 2 (one per amp)
  • RCA * 4
  • Power cables * ? quantity
  • Speaker wire * 20 metres (for santro?)
In addition to cabling I guess I need
  • distribution block
  • fuse holder
You need one 4-ga amp wiring kit if you are installing under the seat, and it would usually include all of the above. Some are generous enough to include speaker wiring too!

4-ga kits also sometimes come with small quantities of 8-ga cable that you can use from a dist. block (in the kit too) to wire the speaker amp. Let a 4-ga line go to the subwoofer amp.

You might need a maximum of 15 meters of 16-ga speaker cable and 5 meters of 12-ga subwoofer cable in addition to the kit
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