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Old 3rd October 2006, 10:39   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autophile
Yeah lot of points are being made...lets say for example "watt is a watt" theory is true and similarly "bhp is a bhp" theory should also be true...right.

So a 100bhp Tata engine should be same as 100bhp Honda engine. Which isn't I believe. They are different in power delivery, available powerband, throttle response, smoothness, torque and power curves, construction, materials, design and even they sound different !!!

If "bhp is a bhp" then people would not have been craving for Honda engines and this forum would not have existed.

According to me Tata and Honda engines are not same. Engine experts on this forum can correct me if I am wrong.
one thing for sure if the tata and honda engine when achive the 100 hp both of them have same output....but but again the available powerband, throttle response, smoothness, torque and power curves, construction, materials, design and even they sound different will be differnt but again the output will be perfectly the same........hence the result is comparable with clarks experiment.......

OT:- Please stick to amplifers....we are not discussing engines here......
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Old 3rd October 2006, 10:44   #17
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Originally Posted by navin
If a watt is a watt lets all throw out our Alpines, Audisons, etc.. and get the super value Sony 554/552s instead. LBM would you do the honours! :-)

Seriously....
Bob Carver had once challenged that he could replicate the sound of ANY amplifier using Power Transforms. He conducted this challenge twice.

He modified his amps (at one instance in a local motel room) and voila initially ALL of the listeners were fooled. However on later listening to entire Albums many differences were noted (now this is after Bob had "null-differenced" the 2 amps - his own and another reputed one - to have the same characteristics).

Was the test successful. Yes and No.
Navin Ji I dont agree that watt is a watt if reffered to a amplifier context but of in plain physcis watt is a watt. If we consider in context of amplifer many other factors comes in like the THD, effeciney etc....this make the amplifier different....may main emphisis is that does a premium amp and a average amp when compared in a controlled manner(like in clark experiment) will sound differnent or the same....I am not after watt is a watt theory
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Old 3rd October 2006, 11:22   #18
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LBM,

You tend to get things the hard way. Thats why I took example of engines, I thought you will understand the point better. And moreover I am not bound to follow any statements about what needs to be discussed on this forum.

In engines you did not get that power output figure is not the only thing which matters. Its all the other factors also which are important.

If only bhp figures matter then Formula 1 engine and Supercharged American Hemi's should be the same. But the truth is that they are not even close. Though power output figures are close but power delivery and experience is totally different.

All knows "watt" is a unit used to rate power. And yes "watt is a watt" we never said that watt is ohms, farad etc.

Why this discussion is going on here because you believe that two different amplifiers with same power output sounds the same even one being expensive than the other.

If people would make their decision in buying amplifiers solely looking at their power output rating and cars engines with its bhp figures, things would be different. There will be no auditions and test drives and both the fields will eventually be monotonous and boring.

And lastly as you said if you don't you agree that "watt is a watt" apply to amplifiers then whats a point of putting up "Richards Clark Test".

If you believe that amplifiers can sound different I will suggest that take up Richard Clarks challenge prove it to him and walk out with USD 10000 prize money and buy yourself better amplifiers.

Last edited by Autophile : 3rd October 2006 at 11:27.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 11:42   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autophile
And lastly as you said if you don't you agree that "watt is a watt" apply to amplifiers then whats a point of putting up "Richards Clark Test".

If you believe that amplifiers can sound different I will suggest that take up Richard Clarks challenge prove it to him and walk out with USD 10000 prize money and buy yourself better amplifiers.
sir sir u got me all wrong here...the clark experiment wants to show that.....

Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched.
His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure “good enough” and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules.

here is the test which clearly shows that no watt is a watt is refered....here it is only disccused that two amplifer sound the same under simliar condition and there is no such thing that a amp is bad sounding or a amp is good sounding it is the aplication makes it sounding bad....

rest I am not saying that all the amps sound differnt IMHO all the amps will sound the same to the human ear if played under condition layed by clark......
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Old 3rd October 2006, 11:55   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

rest I am not saying that all the amps sound differnt IMHO all the amps will sound the same to the human ear if played under condition layed by clark......
Without colors life is dull and boring and coloration is everywhere in nature.

The vegetables and fruits taste different in different region, food tastes different, people are different, climates are different and so on.

Remember variety is the spice of life. If not you can eat same food everyday, wear same clothes everyday, listen to same track, drive same car etc.

And so called test conditions of Mr. Clark is known to him only and I don't think audiophiles across the world gives a damn about the amps being tested in those conditions. Also the diiference in SQ between a mass market amp and a high end amp is much more than "good enough" thats why people shell out their hard earned money to buy them.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:04   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autophile
Also the diiference in SQ between a mass market amp and a high end amp is much more than "good enough" thats why people shell out their hard earned money to buy them.
ok what is SQ related to a amp or in terms of amp only nothing else...

1) frequency response
2) SNR
3) distrotion
4) channel separation
etc....

now what else a mass market amp and a hid end amp will have differnce.....I am not takin componets, bulid quality, design, effenciy, etc....

I am only discussing the factors which make the amp`s SQ....if these are kept in limit to each other then can one tell the differnce....or they will sound different....
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:11   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

[i]His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure “good enough” and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules. ...if played under condition layed by clark......
LBM this is lame.

Take any 2 amps. connect them using BOSS interconnects and they will sound almost the same. they will sound as bad as the BOSS interconnects allow them to.

Even I can create a condition wherein any 2 amps will sound the similar. So similar that few will be able to tell the difference.

In the stratospheric audiophile world however things are very different. Great amps are mated to great sources, cables and speakers and still sound different. So much so that reviewers differ in their opinion as to which cable, speaker, source mates best with the particular amplifier. Audiophiles are not trying to make things sound the same. They are trying to reproduce music to a level that is as close to what they percieve is accurate (to live music).
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:15   #23
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[quote=low_bass_makker]ok what is SQ related to a amp or in terms of amp only nothing else...

1) frequency response
2) SNR
3) distrotion
4) channel separation..QUOTE]

there are 2 answers to this...
a) None of the above.
b) ALL of the above and MORE!

It all depends what school of thought you are in.

My opinion: Use your ears (and what's between them). Like Metallica says "Nothing else Matters!"
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:18   #24
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Navin Ji we are talking of ONLY amp not any other factor....if we play them in a controlled enviorment with all the factor kept constant will both the amp sound different.....this is my question...or richard clarks experiement.....
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:20   #25
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No one can tell looking at the specs how the amplifier will sound. Its the listening with which one can differentiate in the sound.

Also like Navin rightly said, everything matters to get best out of high end amplifier partnering electronics and cables.

It will be quite dumb to use cheap RCA interconnects with expensive amplifiers while testing. Even if you follow the dumb strict "controlled environment" the amplifiers will sound different.

Last edited by Autophile : 3rd October 2006 at 12:24.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 21:27   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
Audiophiles are not trying to make things sound the same. They are trying to reproduce music to a level that is as close to what they percieve is accurate (to live music).
yup...these same words were spoken by one of my best friend almost a decade back.

well,i am no expert but based on my experience i dont agree that watt is watt.This is like saying 'kilometer is kilometer' doesn't matter if u travel by auto-rickhsaw or Shumacher somehow makes a seat for u in his ferrari then go for few laps with Alonso after him in his.

U get what u pay though performance/price ratio keeps decreasing as u go for higher budget stuff.

I am not sure why these topics r posted and discussed repeatedly without any positive outcome [for some].
But i am not surprised coz LBM is not willing to accept something called SQ.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 22:29   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsjaurr
But i am not surprised coz LBM is not willing to accept something called SQ.
sir I dont know what you know about SQ but I think as many people who have listen to my ICE appreciate it and they did not said it on my face that I know for sure and they appreciated its SQ

Also in this thread I am not talking any brand or any specific install I am talking about a challenge in which no one passed. I saw this topic on many forums so I though that I would get opinion of members in this forum thats all and I dont think it is not a repeated topic

And I willing to accept what is right and can be proved....not just baseless things....
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Old 4th October 2006, 01:03   #28
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LBM!!! You seems to be very much lost in your own well. Please do us all a favour by listening to some SQ setups with no SPL meant at all. It is not very easy to find one. I searched for a pure SQ setup for more than a year to find one. And let me tell you frankly; IT SOUNDED CRAP for me. Why? I had not experienced any SQ setups earlier and my ears were used to SPL or SQL setups. But after some extended sessions, it started growing in me and after some months I've started loving it. Now, I even started hating my own ICE setup which is quite a good sounding one according to many SPL guys and quite a few expert audio installers around. SPL is something you'll love until you mature to better SQ setups.
What you should do is spend more time in SQ setups and then crib about this amp challenge. (You may also request the mods to keep this thread closed until then). I repeat; There should be not even smell of SPL in it. Listen to those with your eyes, ears, nose etc open to feel it. I am telling you, your whole concept of car audio will change after you go through some 10-20 auditions of the same. If you still say things what you're saying now, I fear you're an SPL guy and SQ means SPL for you. And keep in mind that most times, SPL does'nt really show differences between amps in terms of output quality and your belief of 'a watt is a watt' and 'output quantity important than output quality' theories will turn out to be true. I am very sorry to say this but I had to. I kept holding my hands from typing it out but it wont stop. Sorry again dude!!

Regarding this challenge thingy, I will take what Navinji, JB, Gunbir, Sam etc.. have to say. They've spent more time listening and tinkering with different audio components rather than read (on the internet, books etc..) about it. In audio, hearing and listening is what it's all about. That's what we call experience in audio. Internet and magazines can be misleading and to rely on it for knowledge and experience is utter foolishness.

It is very much correct that no amp sounds same like other. I even think 2 identical amps (Brand, make, output, model etc..) will produce different sound. It'll be barely audible for people like us, but it's the way it is.

Last edited by speedzak : 4th October 2006 at 01:07.
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Old 4th October 2006, 10:26   #29
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Sir sir dont get me wrong here I am not going in SPL here who said I am talking it here. Sorry if I made every one confused that I am talking about watt is a watt if we compare a boss amp with a tru hammer who has similer specs on there manufacture site but the the boss would be nothing in front of the tru....

Sir I am in to this audio thing since the last 18 years yes the last 18 years I used to listen to my father's cosmic amp and his own had built speaker enclousre with bolton speakers and crossover...also I am disscussing this audio thing nearly all the day....and I have listend to quite high end to low end also ( I am not going in to brands) so I think which is better I know fully. Also to add I have listened to Gunbir car several times and know what a good setup is....

Now what is SQ there can be two defination....

flat frequency response.
or
one does not get fatiuge listen to one setup and love the sound.

now which defination is yours....

In the first one it is very had to achieve in a car a lots of tunning and good speakers amp and hu comes in to picture. but in the second one a simple sony hu with sony speakers will satisfy the 80 % of the junta....it is all subjective and objective type of thing.....

Navin ji please close this thread or better remove it as it is not required as here no one is interested in the same just pulling my legs only......SPL guy.....
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Old 4th October 2006, 10:52   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
Navin Ji we are talking of ONLY amp not any other factor....if we play them in a controlled enviorment with all the factor kept constant will both the amp sound different.....this is my question...or richard clarks experiement.....
Zak, that was really hard.

LBM, I was also only talking about amps. When you asked me "what is SQ related to a amp or in terms of amp only nothing else...
1) frequency response
2) SNR
3) distrotion
4) channel separation.."


I answeed "a) None of the above, b) ALL of the above and MORE! It all depends what school of thought you are in"

I dont understand why you did not get IT. All the specs in the world wont tell you the SQ of an amp. And the 4 specs that you mention are just not enough to tell how an amp will sound. Case in point: I can show you any number of amps that measure well (for the 4 parameters you mention) but dont sound inspiring and vice versa.

Thread closed.
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