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Old 5th March 2007, 17:44   #1
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Question ICE upgrade time!

First, my current (modest) ICE setup -
- JVC KD-G720 headunit
- Alpine dual-cone 4" pair in the front (stock location - doors)
- FIAT tweeters pair in the front (stock location - )
- Alpine coaxial 5-1/4" pair in the rear (stock location - sides)
This setup was done in a hurry and I didn't find time to consult very many people for the same. Don't know if it was a good setup to begin with.

Now, everything was fine-n-dandy with this setup up until some days back. I liked how "clear" (I guess our experts would be able to tell from the configuration that the setup lacks serious bass) the sound was. I was happy .. the world was a nice place to be in.
Then, I happened to sit in my friend's Alto which has an all-Sony-Xplod setup - 6"x9" rears with 5" fronts (I think), no amp etc. Don't know whether it was the system or the songs he played or the booze running in my blod at the time, but, I absolutely loved the thumps that the setup generated on those numbers. It was a bit muddy at times for my taste, but I got hooked nevertheless .. and I mean HOOKED. So, although my current financial condition did not give me much leeway, I decide it was time to get some ICEing on my ride's cake.

Some points which may help you guys advise me -
- I own a 2005 Palio 1.2 NV.

- I have an eclectic taste in music and I listen to everything from popular sufi, ghazals, indipop, bollywood numbers, remixes, folk stuff, gujarati daayra (folk) to rock, metal, trance, rap and hip-hop .. Really, anything goes.

- I'm in no way an audiophile, but music IS my life.

- I'm willing to spend money if I'm getting value for the same. My budget, as of now, stands somewhere around the 10K mark .. give or take a couple of Ks.

- I prefer clarity/fidelity to plain loudness, although some tracks you just HAVE to blast into your ears .. still "muddy" music at any volume is a STRICT no-no.

-- IMPORTANT: and important it is - as far as possible, I do not want to give up on ANY bootspace .. or if that's not possible .. I'd like to dedicate as little bootspace to the additions as possible. This is also one of the reasons I started a new thread, as I didn't find many people asking this question, here on t-bhp.

My noob ICE brainlet tells me that I'll need a good subwoofer and an amplifier to drive the same. Right ?

So, folks .. Please let the advice pour in and guide my ICEing .. my ride will be forever indebted, so will I.
Also, if all these answers have already been answered in one or more threads, please be so kind as to point me to them and ignore this post altogether.
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Old 5th March 2007, 22:53   #2
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Hello, fellow Palio owner!
You liked the sound of the Xplods? Well, different strokes for different folks, I guess. You know, you can make your Palio sound even better than that!

1) You have 4" speakers in the front doors. You can accommodate upto 6.5" speakers in the front With a spacer (and even without one, if you hammer the speaker opening in the door a bit). 6.5" speakers there will make an immediate difference (a huge difference in bass response) overall.

Since you want the music to be as detailed and clear as possible, you can go for components in the front. Options from Hertz & JBL sound good. About 6.5K would do the job here. If you want to cut the budget a little get co-axials. About 5K would do it then.

Also make sure you remove the FIAT (Nippon, actually) tweeters when you add the components/co-axials. The component's tweeters can be placed in the stock tweeter pods (where the FIAT tweeters are now placed).

2) You can get an MDF rear-parcel tray made (most car accessory shops will have one ready-made) for the rear, and get a pair of good 6x9 coaxials there. With a good pair there, (since you don't need a lot of bass), you'll get very good bass response. Go for the same brand/make & series as the speakers you bought for the front. About 6.5K to 8K.

And don't forget to remove the Alpines in the stock speaker pods.

Since you haven't mentioned a budget, I guess we can stop here

Lower Budget
If budget is real tight, shift the Alpine co-axials to the front and get Alpine 6x9s in an MDF tray in the back. Donate the full range speakers currently in the in front to somebody.

Higher Budget
If you want even better response from the speakers, you can amp them. A Pio 6200 or a JBL CS60.4 should do the job at about 8K. If you want a more powerful amp, go the the JBL GTO75.4 at 13K. You'll also need to spend about 3K-4K for power wiring & RCAs. The amp is best mounted on/behind the rear seat (no loss of boot floor space).

Do let us know what you finally decide to do.

EDIT: This setup will not touch your boot space. If you don't mind losing half the boot, let us know. A sub & amp will be inevitable additions. But I'd always suggest that you start with a good pair of speakers in front, at least.

Last edited by hydrashok : 5th March 2007 at 22:56.
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Old 5th March 2007, 23:18   #3
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Uhhh.. you have mentioned a budget of 10K. Just saw it.
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Old 5th March 2007, 23:24   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etchemkay View Post
- I'm willing to spend money if I'm getting value for the same. My budget, as of now, stands somewhere around the 10K mark .. give or take a couple of Ks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
Since you haven't mentioned a budget, I guess we can stop here
I think you were in the hurry to reply and did not read the post fully....
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Old 5th March 2007, 23:33   #5
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hehe hehe
LBM you too were in a hurry that you didnt read hydra's previous post
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Old 5th March 2007, 23:50   #6
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hehe hehe
LBM you too were in a hurry that you didnt read hydra's previous post
yaar i had gone for some work when i came back it was already posted....
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Old 5th March 2007, 23:51   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
You liked the sound of the Xplods?
Well .. it just made me realize how much difference even decent bass can make to my music .. And also, I haven't heard very many audio setups. Maybe, in the next PUG/FCI Pune-Mumbai meet this month, I'll get the chance. Like I said, the Xplods sounded muddy to my untrained ears too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
Since you want the music to be as detailed and clear as possible, you can go for components in the front.
What I understand of component systems is that there is 1 speaker for low-mid range, 1 speaker for mid-high range and a tweeter for high-range reproduction .. all controlled/fed by a crossover .. right ? In that case, won't I need another location to put one of the speakers? .. or are you advising me to get a 2-way speaker for the front along with a tweeter ? Sorry if I'm sounding noobish .. Well, it's coz when it comes to ICE terminology.
Also, can't I use the Nippon tweeters in a component setup .. Or should all 3 speakers in a component setup be of the same brand/make ? In other words, can I salvage my existing speakers and use them in a "component" setup ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
The component's tweeters can be placed in the stock tweeter pods (where the FIAT tweeters are now placed).
Well, my dealer conned me in that case .. I was specifically told that the stock location (next to the ORVM-adjust knobs) accomodated only FIAT (Nippon) tweeters because of the design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
You can get an MDF rear-parcel tray made (most car accessory shops will have one ready-made) for the rear, and get a pair of good 6x9 coaxials there.
I'm a little unsure about this approach. I don't know why, but I'm kinda paranoid about putting up speakers on the parcel tray .. I lose some of my boot space too in that case .. Plus, won't the luggage (if sufficiently tall) bump into the speakers? Then there are concerns about vibrations from the tray itself in the long run.
I'm sure the larger speaker profile will do my sound setup lots of good .. But, I still hope there is another solution. I'm not adamant about not mounting on the parcel tray though .. Just want to know my options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
If budget is real tight, shift the Alpine co-axials to the front
Ya, that would be okay, I guess .. budget is a concern .. DARN those credit cards !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
Donate the full range speakers currently in the in front to somebody.
Takers anyone ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
If you want even better response from the speakers, you can amp them.
One question here .. is it possible to use my current setup and just add an amp ? How much will that help ? I guess there's no substitute for larger speakers (size does matter) .. huh ?

So, in case I shift my rear Alpines to the front, it's an additional -
For the amp - 8K
For the wiring - 3K
For the 6"x9" - 5K???
Total of around 16K .. Hmm ..

- EtchEmKay
P.S: Hydra, I've seen your car's ICE setup and interior leather work .. sweet!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
If you don't mind losing half the boot, let us know. A sub & amp will be inevitable additions.
In that case, can a setup be made where I can remove the sub whenever I wish (for long hauls, perhaps) without making my music entirely bass-less ?

Also, I saw the thread where they use the spare wheel well to fit in a sub .. How feasible is that in the Palio ?

Last edited by aah78 : 6th March 2007 at 00:15. Reason: 2 smileys only per post
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Old 6th March 2007, 00:56   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etchemkay View Post
What I understand of component systems is that there is 1 speaker for low-mid range, 1 speaker for mid-high range and a tweeter for high-range reproduction .. all controlled/fed by a crossover .. right ?
thats a 3 way component setup.but it would be better(cheaper) to go in for a 2 way component setup


Quote:
Originally Posted by etchemkay View Post
Also, can't I use the Nippon tweeters in a component setup .. Or should all 3 speakers in a component setup be of the same brand/make ? In other words, can I salvage my existing speakers and use them in a "component" setup ?
when you buy component speakers they come with a mid bass driver , tweeter and crossover so your nippon tweeters wont be needed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by etchemkay View Post
Well, my dealer conned me in that case .. I was specifically told that the stock location (next to the ORVM-adjust knobs) accomodated only FIAT (Nippon) tweeters because of the design.
most tweeters are the same size and shape dome shaped and will fit in the space mentioned with little or no modification necessary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by etchemkay View Post
I'm a little unsure about this approach. I don't know why, but I'm kinda paranoid about putting up speakers on the parcel tray .. I lose some of my boot space too in that case .. Plus, won't the luggage (if sufficiently tall) bump into the speakers? Then there are concerns about vibrations from the tray itself in the long run.
I'm sure the larger speaker profile will do my sound setup lots of good .. But, I still hope there is another solution. I'm not adamant about not mounting on the parcel tray though .. Just want to know my options.
you could put them in boxes in the boot but you previously mentioned you dont want to lose out on boot space so the tray seems to be a better option.most trays can be detachable so wehn you need more space jus unplug the speakers and remove the tray.as simple as that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by etchemkay View Post
One question here .. is it possible to use my current setup and just add an amp ? How much will that help ? I guess there's no substitute for larger speakers (size does matter) .. huh ?

So, in case I shift my rear Alpines to the front, it's an additional -
For the amp - 8K
For the wiring - 3K
For the 6"x9" - 5K???
Total of around 16K .. Hmm ..

- EtchEmKay
P.S: Hydra, I've seen your car's ICE setup and interior leather work .. sweet!!


In that case, can a setup be made where I can remove the sub whenever I wish (for long hauls, perhaps) without making my music entirely bass-less ?

Also, I saw the thread where they use the spare wheel well to fit in a sub .. How feasible is that in the Palio ?
addingg an amp to existing speakers will definitly not sound as good as gettin new speakers too...

yes the sub can be fitted in a way so as to be removable when desired.
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Old 6th March 2007, 01:46   #9
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So, for a "bare-bones" upgrade without touching boot-space, the following possibilities exist -
Change Plan A
- Bring my 5-1/4" coaxials in the front
- Get new 6"x9" Alpine speakers for the rear
- Re-wiring
- MDF board
Estimated Cost - 6K + 3K + 1K = 10K (Yippee!!)

Change Plan B
... in addition to Plan A ..
- Get an amp to drive the 6"x9"s better
Estimated Cost - 10K + 8K = 18K

Change Plan C
... in addition to Plan B ..
- Get new 2-way component set for the front
Estimated Cost - 18K + 6K(for a 2-way component system??) = 24K(ish)

I'm inclined to Plan B as of now .. What say folks ?

With regards to the amp, I heard some good reviews for the Sony 2- and 4-channel amps (552z and 554z is it ?) which retail at around 4K and 5.5K respectively .. Will those amps drive the 6x9" Alpines well enough ?
Will an amp in that price range be future proof also ? .. meaning will it drive a decent size and quality sub if I do plan to install in the future ?

hydrashok, revtech .. thanks a lot for our replies .. appreciate it

- EtchEmKay
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Old 6th March 2007, 03:31   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etchemkay View Post
Change Plan B
... in addition to Plan A ..
- Get an amp to drive the 6"x9"s better
Estimated Cost - 10K + 8K = 18K

I'm inclined to Plan B as of now .. What say folks ?

With regards to the amp, I heard some good reviews for the Sony 2- and 4-channel amps (552z and 554z is it ?) which retail at around 4K and 5.5K respectively .. Will those amps drive the 6x9" Alpines well enough ?
Will an amp in that price range be future proof also ? .. meaning will it drive a decent size and quality sub if I do plan to install in the future ?
A slightly better plan is to spend 2k more & buy the Pioneer 6200 4-ch amp for 7.5k & budget 2k for the wiring. This way you get a future-proof amp which if required can also drive your sub pretty decently off 2 of its channels & the other 2 can power your front components. Stay away from the Sony's unless you have a really really tight budget.

Meanwhile with this amp you can amplify both pair of speakers in your current setup.
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Old 6th March 2007, 03:41   #11
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yea i second irags....if you want to go for plan B go ahead.but try NOT to get the SONY amps.personally i have had a bad experience with it while it was driving my tube. prefreble get pioneer, blaunpunkt, JBL these are the ones that come to mind in the 5-10 k bracket.

later on when you feel the need for better front sound staging you can get components and maybe a sub and use your existing amp to drive the sub and components.


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Old 6th March 2007, 08:26   #12
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1) As Rags said, a Pio 6200 will be way better than any Sony amp.

2) Plan B involves not amping the fronts. Which is not so good an idea. All the sound will come from the 6x9s in the back.

But if you get a 4-ch amp (like the Pio 6200), you can amp the fronts and the rears, and that would be good. So Plan B with a 4-ch amp will be good.

And if you want to add a sub later (in a removable box) you can use the rear channels of the amp to drive the sub and run the rear speakers off the HU.

Removable MDF tray: As Rev said, most trays are removable. I had such a setup earlier, with a removable sub-box & tray. When I needed space, I'd remove the box. When I needed even more (vertical) space, I'd unplug the speakers & remove the tray.

Sub: If you are planning for a sub (immediately, or later), you can actually leave the 5.25" Alpines in the rears. Get a component set for the front and later (or now), a decent sub (in a box) in the boot.

If you do plan to buy an amp now (or later), I'd always suggest that you take a long-term view and not spend extra on the rears (as you will be able to add a sub also later). You can also avoid the parcel tray this way.

You can get the comps and an amp, amp the (front & back) speakers for now and get a sub later (like I mentioned in "2" above).

Last edited by hydrashok : 6th March 2007 at 08:29.
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Old 6th March 2007, 08:29   #13
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Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
Also make sure you remove the FIAT (Nippon, actually) tweeters when you add the components/co-axials. The component's tweeters can be placed in the stock tweeter pods (where the FIAT tweeters are now placed).
Hey hydra...
A friend of mine has infinity 2 way comps in his palio..nd the nippon tweeters are stil in the tweeters pods nd the comp tweeters are placed on the dash...He does not want to waste the tweeters nd i think they are quite decent soundin!..do you think they wil affect the SQ in the front...with the nippon tweets playin with the comp tweets???....or should they moved to a different location ??
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Old 6th March 2007, 09:10   #14
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keep it if you like the treble. some people do
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Old 6th March 2007, 09:17   #15
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Hey hydra...
A friend of mine has infinity 2 way comps in his palio..nd the nippon tweeters are stil in the tweeters pods nd the comp tweeters are placed on the dash...
I used have a set of Nippon tweets in my tweeter pods, but I removed them about 2 years back when my car was running an all Blau setup.

Those tweets are actually quite decent (not at all shrill/harsh), but I didn't want that much treble up front (I had 2-way coaxes in my front then). I actually tried them out for a while (running in parallel with the fronts), but I didn't like the way the overall setup sounded up front so I removed them, and that fixed it for me. (for me being the key words).

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He does not want to waste the tweeters nd i think they are quite decent soundin!..
Like I said, they are quite decent. But they can't hold a candle to tweeters supplied with component speakers (with their input signal filtered by a crossover). The Nippon tweets apparently have a built-in "crossover" according to the catalogue at FIAT (most likely one of those capacitor-things used as bass-bockers), but even this "crossover" would be no match for a properly designed crossover (esp. an Infinity crossover, in your friend's case).

If your friend likes the sound the way it is, I guess he should keep them (the Nippon tweets) that way. They will make the front-stage brighter than it should be, but if he likes the sound that way, what the heck?
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