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Old 12th August 2007, 00:04   #61
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Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
I'm not familiar with the 4750), you can give speaker-level input to the 60.2 (from the front-speaker wires) and amp the fronts.
Whoa there. The 60.2 is a two channel amplifier. So what's the point of running a high-level input? His only chance is to wire the front and rear in parallel. But that might be a high load on the amp.
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Old 12th August 2007, 00:39   #62
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The 75.4 seem to be in short supply. Discounts are also not that forthcoming. The dealer I went to was trying to push soundstreams

Any other amp options in the 75.4 range ?
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Old 12th August 2007, 05:17   #63
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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Whoa there. The 60.2 is a two channel amplifier. So what's the point of running a high-level input? His only chance is to wire the front and rear in parallel. But that might be a high load on the amp.
Exactly.
Another option was to feed a 4-channel amp with speaker-level inputs from the HU. That way I would get amplification to front and rear, and fading, etc.
Dealer dude categorically told me the sound quality would not be as good if I took speaker-level inputs. Also that the front speakers should not be amplified as they would cause vibrations in the door.
Gurus, any truth to this?
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Old 12th August 2007, 16:55   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Whoa there. The 60.2 is a two channel amplifier. So what's the point of running a high-level input? His only chance is to wire the front and rear in parallel. But that might be a high load on the amp.
I meant that he could amp the fronts only and leave the rears running off the HU [and not amp the fronts and rears from the 2-ch amp ]. I suggested the speaker-level input because he said the HU has pre-outs only for the rear-channel. This way, the fader function can be retained.
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Old 12th August 2007, 20:41   #65
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Originally Posted by filcord View Post
Dealer dude categorically told me the sound quality would not be as good if I took speaker-level inputs. Also that the front speakers should not be amplified as they would cause vibrations in the door.
Gurus, any truth to this?
No, SQ will not be degraded if one uses a speaker-level to line (pre-amp) level convertor. Some amps have that built-in, some don't.

If the dealer hasn't heard of DAMPING, obviously he would say that. And not only if you use an amp, even HUs would cause that if played loud.

One has to damp the doors (at least) well - refer to the thread on VFM damping products. Should cost 5-8K to do that.
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Old 13th August 2007, 10:28   #66
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Thanks DerAlte. Now the dealer has suggested I can use a 4-channel amp, provided I use RCA inputs for one set(say rear speakers) and speaker-level inputs for the front speakers. Is this feasible?
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Old 13th August 2007, 11:54   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filcord View Post
provided I use RCA inputs for one set(say rear speakers) and speaker-level inputs for the front speakers. Is this feasible?
Wonder why he is suggesting that way! Just have the courage to believe that you can be more logical and systematic than the dealer; he might be making an irrational suggestion (not technically incorrect).

Sure, but front or rear by RCA depends on the which HU + amp you are trying to put in:
* If the HU DOES NOT have pre-outs, then BOTH HAVE TO BE speaker-level
* If HU has 2 pre-outs (2 L-R pairs for front and rear) then both can be RCA
* If the HU has 1 pre-out only, then the manual will tell you to which fader setting it is internally wired to - front or rear. Use it as the manual says it should be used.
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Old 13th August 2007, 12:17   #68
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
* If the HU has 1 pre-out only, then the manual will tell you to which fader setting it is internally wired to - front or rear. Use it as the manual says it should be used.
Sorry, I should have mentioned. The Pio 4750 has 1 rear RCA pre-out.
Hence the need to use some other input to feed the amplifier for the fronts.
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Old 19th August 2007, 11:22   #69
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I was dissatisfied with the sound of my Baleno set-up given in the posts below, mainly as I found the front 637s, running off the HU, sounded tinny and puny. I did what every other person bitten by ICE-virus does: Went in deeper into debt.
Changed HU from 4750 to Pio4950. This has three RCA pre-outs. I could also continue to use my cable for Ipod that I had obtained from @Driven.
Changed the amp from JBL Cs60.2 to CS60.4, 4-channel driving GTO637 in front doors and GTO937 in rear shelf. These were placed flat after gas-cutting the metal to make the holes, which I got them to touch up with DUPont quick-dry grey primer . Then a layer of damping applied to entire shelf, and the 937's were screwed in place.
At this point of time I had to leave for work, when I got back in the evening, everything was complete.
Took the car home, and was so disappointed again. Now the fronts sounded louder, but still tinny with no bass.
Sunday morning, armed with a multimeter and screwdriver, decided to be Sherlock Holmes.
First off, discovered there was a slide switch for the front and rears in the amp, meant in case one is using a sub (which I do not) The switch for the fronts was set to HPF. Changed this to "flat" and lo and behold, full sound was regained. Then checked the tweeter boost on the speakers, in each case the switch on the tweeter was set to the boost position. Put them all off.

I always listen to music with flat eq and really loud. The sound now is a revelation. It's full, rich and has just the right balance for me. I never want to leave the car!

Thanks to the many inputs I gleaned from the Gurus in this forum.

Last edited by filcord : 19th August 2007 at 11:27. Reason: grammar
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Old 19th August 2007, 11:48   #70
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Congrats filcord! How about posting some pictures of your final setup?

Great to know you're enjoying your ICE!
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Old 19th August 2007, 16:52   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filcord View Post
Dealer dude categorically told me the sound quality would not be as good if I took speaker-level inputs. Also that the front speakers should not be amplified as they would cause vibrations in the door.
Gurus, any truth to this?
1. yes there is some degradation of signal if one uses the speaker level inputs but I would not knock it untill I try it. there are many who wont notice.

2. vibrations can be damped. why not treat your front speakers (after all this is where you sit) to the best just becuase the car's door is a bit flimsy/resonant.
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Old 19th August 2007, 16:54   #72
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
One has to damp the doors (at least) well - refer to the thread on VFM damping products. Should cost 5-8K to do that.
if it only the front doors 2 sheets of AD will do nciely (one per door). that mean Rs. 2.8K. the trouble is that outside bangy AD is not well distributed.
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Old 11th September 2007, 12:58   #73
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@ shuvc - time to update this thread heard that Silver Arrow was in ICE mode a week before and now hehehe!

Last edited by planet_rocker : 11th September 2007 at 12:59.
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Old 11th September 2007, 14:12   #74
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Default Install done !!

Got the install done exactly 1 month after I started this thread.

Budget
Budget ballooned from 12K to 27.5K . Clap in glee all ye evil ICE'ers ! My wife now calls me a T-BHP ICE murga!

Final Setup
It barely remains a partial upgrade. Changed everything save the sub.
Pio 4950
Illusion Electra 62 front coax
Illusion Electra 62 rear coax
JBL 75.4
Retained Soomoku active sub.

Got the speakers from Ajay.
HU , Amp and install from another T-BHPian @vinay daga. He runs Glix in Kolkata.

Snaps here:
Picasa Web Albums - Shuvojoy - ICE


Choice of equipment

HU
- The kenwood sound was not doing justice to the rest of the setup.
- It had connectivity issues. It required converters to convert the speaker level out to RCA pre-outs for the amp. This would have anyway cost me a 1000 minimum.
- @shuvd graciously asked me to try out his old Pio P1Y. Had that for a day. There was a lot of whirring/whistling etc., probably due to grounding issues. @Vinays guys tried their best, but the sound just would not go away.

Hence went for the most VFM 3 pre-out HU, as suggested earlier in this thread.

Speakers
Listened to almost all the Kolkata T-BHP ICE setups - JBL, Illusion, Kicker compos. Liked the Illusions the most. To my ear they were the smoothest. Although have no idea whether it was an effect of the rest of the equipment in those setups.

However, for all of these, the sound was too 'in-my-face'. I listened to a JBL all coax setup with the 60.4 and somehow liked that more. Hence I decided I would not be going for components. Since I saved 2.5K there (EL6.1 vs EL62), I decided to replace the rear coax too. Also, since I do have a sub (or a pretender !), I chose 6.5" over 6"x9" rear coax.

Amp
I was soon convinced that I would need an amp with more juice than a 60w RMS piece. Juggled around for a while between the 75.4 and the Blau GTA 475. Did a lot of reading out here and it did seem that if I'm willing to spend, the 75.4 is a no-brainer. Vinay gave a decent price too.


Current Settings

HU

Sub LPF 80Hz/+5dB
Speakers HPF 80Hz
Equaliser Low 0dB, Mid +1dB, High 0dB
Bass +5dB
Loud Off
Fader +6 towards the front
Volume between 20-30

The Soomoku has a remote Bass boost knob in the dash. To give myself the headroom of cranking up the bass using only that knob, the HU bass settings are kept high. This way for normal usage the remote bass knob is around 50%. If the HU settings are kept flat, I felt the need to keep the knob at 90%+.

AMP
Both front & rear speakers - Input level around 2-3V (twisted 60% towards .75mV)

HPF around 80-100hz. Very difficult to gauge. Why don't they give some intermediate markings?

Bass boost for rear speakers set to 0.

Yet to experiment with the amp after fitting the 4950.


Glitches and outstanding issues.

Rattles, whistles etc ... a lot of them were taken care of by Vinay's patient crew.

Some blown fuses. Got them all re-checked and replaced as required at the MUL workshop after the install. All ok now on that front.

A bit of metal had to be cut both at the front and rear to accomodate the 6.5" speakers :(

Only outstanding issue now. A slight rattle in the driver door is present. It doesn't rattle to the beat of the music. It seems like something is loose and I hear the sound when on rough roads.


The sound !
This matters the most. And I must say I am happy. The reason I wanted to upgrade were:
- smooth sound
- low volume clarity
- strong meaty midrange
- bass that is not too overpowering
- staging that is not in-my-face. Although this is probably the ideal way to setup ICE, I decided to go by what I liked (heeding @navin's constant advise to everyone)

Mark Knopfler's voice sounds the way it should and Ammonia Avenue (Alan Parsons Project) made my day while coming to office today.

Credits

Thank you Zakkie, Hydra, Navin, Sam, Shrivz, LBM, DerAlte, Riju, Ishaan, Nura, Wimwian, filcord for your inputs.

Thanks to the Kolkata members too with some extra dollops of gratitude for @shuvd and @razor for being my sounding board day-in day-out. You guys must be heaving a sigh of relief now that I am outta ICE mode (smile)

Vinay, thanks for all the help with the install.

Ajay, your inputs were very helpful. Really appreciated the way you promptly responded to all queries with crisp, precise and relevant answers.

However, all this would not have happened if darling wifey were not patient and understanding. I put her through a whole month of my ICE mode - you guys know how it can get !!. Love you.
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Old 11th September 2007, 14:31   #75
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Anytime! Actually, it was quite fun to see you in "Ice Mode". Congratulations on the install. Now, for an audition meet!
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