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Old 21st August 2008, 11:13   #121
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Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
Btw, what is "an LBM product"? One that I know of is a sweet little toddler.
Hmm..Under training..

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Old 21st August 2008, 12:08   #122
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
Hmm..Under training..
Fantastic, LBM, that is an early start!

Reminds me of my daughter in an (almost) identical situation: she managed to lay her hands on my tool kit, took out a screwdriver and was trying to emulate me repairing my old Sony 2-in-1 (she had seen me open it earlier). Got a desperate call from my wife - she had inserted the screwdriver in the band-switch and given a hefty yank. Loud crack and 2-in-1 kaput!
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Old 21st August 2008, 12:37   #123
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
Navin Ji can any 250 rms driver take 700 rms (that is three times the power), in any kinda of enclosure.
Noramlly most power ratings are thermal ratings. Few driver manufacturers can specify more as Xmax limited power ratings are cabinet dependant.

No if the driver was rated conservatively and the amp was not a 200W woofer might be able to absorb 600W (3x power). Also for short (< 200ms)bursts (music is not continous) drivers can often absorb 5x their rated power.

I dont know much about ratings and how various manufacturers rate their products. I try to stick to manufacturers I (or others I trust) know well. There are many products i have not tried or heard so i cannot comment on these.

I am sorry, I wish I was more knowledgeable.
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Old 21st August 2008, 14:48   #124
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
I am sorry, I wish I was more knowledgeable.
Sir, fishing for compliments are we? Please don't be so humble. There are few people I know with the knowledge you have.

You're right again. iD drivers are rated quite conservatively and if used in proper enclosure / conditions will handle way more than rated power. The iDv3 subs (in question here) are rated by iD for 100-400w RMS. They easily handle more "music power".

Common mistakes people commit:
- Wrong / Leaky enclosure (in case of sealed)
- Wrong tuning freq / port (in case of ported)
- Use of Bass Boost EQ
- Clipping / Gains set too high

Of course, avoiding these will allow any driver to work at its best and as Navinji said, most quality products will handle much more "musical" power than the RMS power rating.

Cheers!

Last edited by gunbir : 21st August 2008 at 14:49.
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Old 21st August 2008, 15:04   #125
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Originally Posted by gunbir View Post
Common mistakes people commit:
- Wrong / Leaky enclosure (in case of sealed)
- Wrong tuning freq / port (in case of ported)
- Use of Bass Boost EQ
- Clipping / Gains set too high

Of course, avoiding these will allow any driver to work at its best and as Navinji said, most quality products will handle much more "musical" power than the RMS power rating.
What if a correct enclosure is made and no EQ boost is given along with correctly set gains and no clipping is there but still the sub bottoms out then what ?

Also what do you term as Musical power vs RMS rating.

Last edited by yayaati : 21st August 2008 at 15:07.
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Old 22nd August 2008, 01:25   #126
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
LOL, Do not say it anyplace else or everybody will think you are joking, LOL

If you still cannot figure out what I am saying come down to FBD I will show you every thing practically.
I actually did say it and nobody laughed!!A lot of youtube videos to actually prove that the idmax can handle a lot of power.And im just inferring the statement from the fact that you said the steg wasnt being able to handle the idmax.you have clearly made it visible that the steg wasnt being able to handle the idmax,so steg's capabilities come into question!
The other possibility is that the box's port length wasn't tuned properly or the gains on the amp weren't set properly.

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Originally Posted by yayaati View Post
What if a correct enclosure is made and no EQ boost is given along with correctly set gains and no clipping is there but still the sub bottoms out then what ?

Also what do you term as Musical power vs RMS rating.
Then the sub wont bottom out.
If a subwoofer is rated 250w rms,it means that if you were to play a constant test tone,while giving the sub 250w,it would handle it but not more.But music isnt constant and has various dips and highs,and the subwoofer wont be under stress.If you were to give the sub 400w rms and play a test tone,the subwoofer's voice coil would reach its thermal capabilties and melt,causing the cone and spider to crash and touch the base plate.This is called bottoming out.
Since music isnt constant,the subwoofer can take a lot more power.
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Old 22nd August 2008, 10:46   #127
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Originally Posted by hellspawn View Post
... If you were to give the sub 400w rms and play a test tone,the subwoofer's voice coil would reach its thermal capabilties and melt,causing the cone and spider to crash and touch the base plate.This is called bottoming out.
Since music isnt constant,the subwoofer can take a lot more power.
If the sub reaches the limit of it's thermal capabilities (balance between heat dissipated and generated by the coil), it won't bottom out - there will be a flash and a puff of smoke, and ... RIP, dear sub!

Bottoming out, on the other hand, is the result of a combination of circumstances (musical passage, acceleration of cone, pliability of surround, moving mass etc.), and can happen well below the electrical limits of the sub. The sub suffers long, painful death throes - the slapping of the VC against the bottom plate makes the coil come off the former, then insulation degeneration, and - if one still persists to torture the sub - coil breakage and eventually Hari Om!

IIRC LBM has pictures of bottomed out coils that were part of his learning process !
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Old 22nd August 2008, 11:21   #128
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Originally Posted by hellspawn View Post
I actually did say it and nobody laughed!!A lot of youtube videos to actually prove that the idmax can handle a lot of power.And im just inferring the statement from the fact that you said the steg wasnt being able to handle the idmax.you have clearly made it visible that the steg wasnt being able to handle the idmax,so steg's capabilities come into question!
The other possibility is that the box's port length wasn't tuned properly or the gains on the amp weren't set properly.
Arre Bhai you win IDMAX is better than STEG, Now are you Happy. I know what all my equipment can do and what are its limitations. But since you are a hardcore ID fan you will turn every stone to prove that the ID products are the best even if they are the worst. Anyways I had bought there finest of subs, used it, did not liked it so sold them (as I fear who will buy a dead sub)

So no point arguing with you

About the youtube.com vdo there can have lots of incorrect info posted there. I will not take it is a benchmark to compare the sub performance Here is some thing you will like..



And some took the liberty to educate what is true..



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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
IIRC LBM has pictures of bottomed out coils that were part of his learning process !
Thanks for the support, hope you understand when newbies in audio comes and challenges without base and facts, rest assure practical experiments.
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Old 22nd August 2008, 11:25   #129
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Originally Posted by gunbir View Post
Sir, fishing for compliments are we?
Not really Gunbir I have not been active in Audio for over a decade much of what I know is quite outdated even more so on ICE. I dont spend a lot of time listening to other's sytems today.

I want the members to know that an "ICE Mod" need not be a Guru.

Last edited by navin : 22nd August 2008 at 11:28.
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Old 22nd August 2008, 11:30   #130
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Arre Bhai you win IDMAX is better than STEG,..So no point arguing with you
Chill LBM. It's only audio!
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Old 22nd August 2008, 11:45   #131
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Chill LBM. It's only audio!
No issues here Navin Ji. That why I said.
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Old 22nd August 2008, 17:46   #132
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
Arre Bhai you win IDMAX is better than STEG, Now are you Happy. I know what all my equipment can do and what are its limitations. But since you are a hardcore ID fan you will turn every stone to prove that the ID products are the best even if they are the worst. Anyways I had bought there finest of subs, used it, did not liked it so sold them (as I fear who will buy a dead sub)

So no point arguing with you
I dont need to prove anything least of all to you!!I have heard a couple of more subs of different brands and am basing my review on the abx experiment.Some people would not like me to take the names of the sub brand.
As far as supporting id is concerned,if you can support steg,why cant i support id.i have my opinions and favourites too.


Thanks for the support, hope you understand when newbies in audio comes and challenges without base and facts, rest assure practical experiments.
And i reckon you are a pro in audio.I would rather consider Navin,deralte,autophile,gunbir,sam gurus in audio.And challenge????Where did i challenge you.It was a simple argument.
My reply in bold.
Cheers!
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Old 23rd August 2008, 12:37   #133
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@ hellspawn : good knowledge there about the technical aspects these days. any classes recently or just googling? its good to know your equipment though. Cheers!
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Old 23rd August 2008, 18:50   #134
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Guys, is there a point that is being attempted to be proven here by this debate? Please cease and desist - let us avoid "mine is bigger than yours" debates and apply ourselves to sharing knowledge.
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Old 23rd August 2008, 22:04   #135
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@ hellspawn : good knowledge there about the technical aspects these days. any classes recently or just googling? its good to know your equipment though. Cheers!
What difference does it make as long as i learn something.Always knew stuff but didnt have the initiative.Audio is basically electronic and mechanical engineering 101 combined!!So my course books suffice!
Thanks and cheers!!
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