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Old 14th October 2008, 09:30   #31
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Yes the 4.1 comps will fit in Santro (a friend got it fixed in his Santro Xing recently) You can contact Bass&Trouble for details via PM.
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Old 24th March 2009, 13:18   #32
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Alright guys, Its been over a year that the last upgrade on my ICE happened.

In the last 3 + years this is how my ICE has evolved.

Basic Setup -

Pioneer 5650 HU
Pioneer 240W Rear 6X9s
Sony 130w 4 inch fronts

First upgrade -


Sony 12 inch Sub & Sony 4 channel amp driving rear speakers & Sub

Second Upgrade -

Front EL 4.1 with Illusion Audio 16 AWG wires + new RCAs

Third Upgrade(planning next month) -

- New HU - Clarion DXZ 785 USB (TA, 24bit DAC, USB, better pre-outs, soundstage )
- Damping for front speakers(basically make them sound to their full potential)
- New Wires for rear speakers
- New Sub box(if the diff is noticeable, currently the amp is roughly giving 50% power to sub)

This way I will upgrade with minimum expense & will also know what difference this upgrade brings

I have also been thinking of getting a 3-way setup at front & chuck off the rear speakers. I discussed this with Navin & Others & they said that my New HU with TA & better SQ should take care of sound stage issues & lack of bass from front. Also this will cost a lot more since I would need a new amp

So as of today I am almost decided that I will only be doing the upgrade as mentioned earlier.

This last weekend I was trying to check out how loud can the system go with fader at 0. I had previously noticed that above 60% volume I used to hear some clipping (not sure if thats what its called, typically awaaz fat raha tha). I was basically playing a dhin chak dhin chak(spl) Number The HPF was set at 125Hz

I initially thought that it must be the rear 6X9s which are run from HU. So I adjusted the fader for full back & was surprised to know that they were rocking even at higher volumes
Then I switched to fronts & relaized that while the highs were coming pretty well it were the mid frequencies which were getting distorted from 4 inch speaker.

So now I started playing with fader so that I can reach a point where this doesnt happen. Thats when I realized that the point where it doesnt happen or is barely noticeable is the point where the output is faded almost completely to rear. screwing up the front image

So in short my doubt is that even if I damp the front 4 incher, for spl numbers It would be really difficult for it to match up as the rear has more output & is essentially a bigger speaker.

And I do listen to high volumes every now & then.

So a few questions

- Will TA help? At the end its still a 4 incher at beyond a point it is bound to show its limitation

- Wont replacing the 4 incher by 6 or 6.5 inch mid woofer be a better solution?

- Which setup out of the ones listed below will sound better vis -a vis price(all withe new Clarion HU)

1) 4 inch comps(amp) + Rear 6X9 + Sub(amp)

2) 6 inch Comps(amp) + rear speaker 6X9 + Sub (amp)

3) Front 3 way (4 inch comps + 6 inch woofer) + Sub(amp) (No rear speaker)

Phew Yes I am confused :|

Sorry for the long post & advice please

Last edited by Technocrat : 24th March 2009 at 13:19.
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Old 24th March 2009, 13:44   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
...
So a few questions

- Will TA help? At the end its still a 4 incher at beyond a point it is bound to show its limitation

- Wont replacing the 4 incher by 6 or 6.5 inch mid woofer be a better solution?

- Which setup out of the ones listed below will sound better vis -a vis price(all withe new Clarion HU)

1) 4 inch comps(amp) + Rear 6X9 + Sub(amp)

2) 6 inch Comps(amp) + rear speaker 6X9 + Sub (amp)

3) Front 3 way (4 inch comps + 6 inch woofer) + Sub(amp) (No rear speaker)
@technocrat, congrats on the Clarion HU!

- Nope, TA will not help. The 4" drivers can only so much, and the 6x9s in the back must be drowning them out.

- Yes, a 6.5" or 6" midbass driver would improve things a whole lot. Installation in the front doors of Alto will not be as easy as in other cars, but a good installer will be able to get it done.

- The best (but costliest) option would be a 3-way active setup. But this would involve buying a 6.5" midbass driver, and a new amp. Plus a bit more speaker cabling.

I don't think you can do a 3-way setup with the current 4" comps, a midbass driver and a sub. That would be a 4-way active setup (Midbass + midrange + tweeter + sub) which I don't think the Clarion you are getting will be able to do.

A 3-way active setup (which I think your new HU will be able to do) would be Midbass + Tweeter + Sub.

Right now, I think the best option would be to get a set of 6.5" components. Maybe you can buy just a 6.5" midbass driver & an XO (from a 6.5" comp kit) and skip getting new tweeters (and use the existing tweeters)? This would not be an active setup, but will sound good, without needing a new amp.

If you'd like to, you can also use the 4" midbass in the back for rear-fill (run off the HU's amp). It will not mess with the front stage thaaaaat much.

Your 2nd option (6.5" comps in front & 6x9s in back, both running off the amp) also will sound good, but I think 6.5" comps + sub (both running off the amp, of course) will sound better.

Last edited by hydrashok : 24th March 2009 at 13:49.
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Old 24th March 2009, 13:57   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
...So a few questions

- Will TA help? At the end its still a 4 incher at beyond a point it is bound to show its limitation

- Wont replacing the 4 incher by 6 or 6.5 inch mid woofer be a better solution?

- Which setup out of the ones listed below will sound better vis -a vis price(all withe new Clarion HU)

1) 4 inch comps(amp) + Rear 6X9 + Sub(amp)

2) 6 inch Comps(amp) + rear speaker 6X9 + Sub (amp)

3) Front 3 way (4 inch comps + 6 inch woofer) + Sub(amp) (No rear speaker)
...
TA will help blend the bass from the sub into the front image. The 4"ers are the limitation; yes, adding a 6" or 6.5" should improve the mid-bass in front.

The 3-way would be the best solution. Problems would be getting only the larger mid-bass speakers and the XOs for making it passive 3-way. Perhaps B&T-bhai can wave his magic wand.

Don't ditch the Pio 6x9. Drive them off the existing amp, along with the sub.

To achieve a really good front image & SQ beyond the 3-way, get a 2-channel amp just to drive the fronts.
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Old 24th March 2009, 14:27   #35
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Thanks Anup & DA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrashok
I don't think you can do a 3-way setup with the current 4" comps, a midbass driver and a sub. That would be a 4-way active setup (Midbass + midrange + tweeter + sub) which I don't think the Clarion you are getting will be able to do.

A 3-way active setup (which I think your new HU will be able to do) would be Midbass + Tweeter + Sub.
The way I am thinking is front pre-out goes to existing 4 inch comps, rear pre-out goes to 6 inch driver & the sub pre-out to the Sub. This was we can effectively cut off respective frequencies for each set(of pre-outs)

What say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DA
The 3-way would be the best solution. Problems would be getting only the larger mid-bass speakers and the XOs for making it passive 3-way. Perhaps B&T-bhai can wave his magic wand.

Don't ditch the Pio 6x9. Drive them off the existing amp, along with the sub.
DA I have posted above how i plan it to work, in this case there would be no channel to give to rear speakers.

I rarely have passengers at back which most often ask me to turn the volume down. So I dont really need rear speakers.

How much would a cheap 2 channel amp cost?
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Old 24th March 2009, 14:45   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
I don't think you can do a 3-way setup with the current 4" comps, a midbass driver and a sub. That would be a 4-way active setup (Midbass + midrange + tweeter + sub) which I don't think the Clarion you are getting will be able to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The 3-way would be the best solution. Problems would be getting only the larger mid-bass speakers and the XOs for making it passive 3-way. Perhaps B&T-bhai can wave his magic wand.
No need for my magic danda.

I suggest 4-way setup, part-active.

Use the Clarion in pro mode, use the low out to drive the sub.

Use the mid out to supply to the channel that drives the 6.5" midbass.

Use the highs to connect to the input of the passive crossover of the 4.1. Leave the 4" and tweeter connected to this only. The crosover between the 4" and tweet will thus be handled by the passive network.

The crossover frequency between the 6.5" midbasses and the 4" + tweet combo can be set to about 700-800 Hz from the head unit.
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Old 24th March 2009, 14:49   #37
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you can get any good 4ch amp and do a 3-way setup with the clarion HU.

Here's how you can wire it:

HU: Front and Rear outs to a 4ch amp. HU x-over set on 3-way mode.

Front Output: Connect this to your 4" components using their own passive x-over (the same way its connected right now).

High Pass Filter on your HU 3-way x-over should be set accordingly somewhere between 350Hz - 1KHz.

Rear Output: Connect this to your 6.5" midbasses.
Configure the bandpass (3-way) x-over on your HU as under:
LPF being the same as the HPF for your front output
HPF somewhere between 63Hz - 80Hz

Subwoofer: The subwoofer configuration remains unchanged all this while. Low Pass will be the same as the High Pass on the rear output!

I hope I haven't confused you further!!





EDIT: Just saw a guruji's post.. Please ignore this!

Last edited by shrivz : 24th March 2009 at 14:51.
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Old 24th March 2009, 15:12   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
The way I am thinking is front pre-out goes to existing 4 inch comps, rear pre-out goes to 6 inch driver & the sub pre-out to the Sub. This was we can effectively cut off respective frequencies for each set(of pre-outs)
How much would a cheap 2 channel amp cost?
The cheapest 2 ch amp is the Sony 552. about 3K I guess.

HU ----> front out ----> HPF at 200/250Hz ----> amp ----> 4" components
HU ----> rear out -----> HPF at 80Hz and LPF at 200 Hz----> amp ----> 6"
HU ----> sub out ------> LPF at 80Hz ------> amp -----> subwoofer

fader works as a midbass level control

for the 6" midbass
You can daisy chain the LPF at 200Hz from the HU with a 80Hz HPF from the amp. Ideally it should be the other way around (using HPF of the HU and LPF in the amp) but your amp does not have a 200hz LPF right?
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Old 24th March 2009, 15:26   #39
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Shrivz- How will the sub get power in first place i.e. where will I put the sub pre-outs in a 4 channel amp?

@Ajay: This sounds good & interesting & also matches with my expectation

@Navin- I am attaching as snapshot from the manual which shows how XO can be setup, hopefully this should be helpful in achieving what I want,

Fader wont be avilable in 3 way mode. Would this(pic below) work in the way you mentioned?

Illusion Electra 4.1 in Alto - Upgraded with Clarion DXZ 785 USB HU + 6.5 mid bass-xo.jpg

So if I go for this setup what all extra would I need? Here is what I expect please add/remove as necessary & also give suggestions -

- A pair of 6/6.5 inch drivers
- Damping on Front doors & cutting them for the speakers
- Good Wiring for door speaker
- new amp(2 channel)
- Power Cables
- Distribution block for 2 amps power?
- Another pair of RCA(for 2nd amp)?

Phew thats a lot of Moolah :| anything I missed?

Last edited by Technocrat : 24th March 2009 at 16:30. Reason: Thanks Anup :)
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Old 24th March 2009, 15:27   #40
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Looks like we have the 4-way solution explained by B&T, Shrivz & Navin

Great idea, and I think it will very good for the money that needs to be spent (2ch amp + pair of 6.5" midbasses). Go for it, Technocrat!

EDIT: Just saw your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
- A pair of 6/6.5 inch drivers
- Damping on Front doors & cutting them for the speakers
- Good Wiring for door speaker
- new amp(2 channel)
- Power Cables
- Distribution block for 2 amps power?
- Another pair of RCA(for 2nd amp)?

Phew thats a lot of Moolah :| anything I missed?
You've got the list down pat It is a bit of money, but like I said above, I think the money will be well spent.

Last edited by hydrashok : 24th March 2009 at 15:32.
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Old 24th March 2009, 15:52   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
How much would a cheap 2 channel amp cost?
The Blau GTA2 MKII used to have a MRP of 3750/-.
Or get hold of an old JBL CS60.2
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Old 24th March 2009, 16:26   #42
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Such an awesome 3-way setup to run off a Sony 4-ch amp?
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Old 24th March 2009, 16:35   #43
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Thanks Anup. I think I will like it to be 3 way as mentioned by all above.

I am a bit worried about the money that I would need for all this. Lets see how this works out.

@Nitrous: Bacche ki jaan loge kya :(

Last edited by Technocrat : 24th March 2009 at 16:36.
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Old 24th March 2009, 18:49   #44
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Ohh brilliant!! the clarion's got independent phase control for each pair of outputs!

You will need a 4ch amp for the speakers plus another 2ch or mono to drive the sub!
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Old 25th March 2009, 10:09   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Fader wont be avilable in 3 way mode. Would this(pic below) work in the way you mentioned?
anything I missed?
Given the speakers you are going to use and their relative placement I would prefer that the 6" Midbass and 4" midbass be XOed around 200Hz.

Remember that the 2 (6" and 4") speakers are not on axis in fact their relative axes cant be more obtuse.

In home audio I have found that 200Hz is high as you can go without hearing some really funny effects (phasey) when the axes are so placed. I dont know if the same will apply to car audio with all the reflections that occur.

So what worries me is that while the HPF of the High section cant be set to 200Hz (25Hz to 20kHz) the LPF of the Mid section cannot be set so low (the lowest seems to 630Hz). The HPF of the mid section should be set to 63Hz which again is possible and this will correspond to the LPF for the sub.

B&T can you confirm this?
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