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Old 1st March 2008, 00:01   #1
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Question Rear Speakers Position: Door v/s Tray, and all that!

I was unable to find the answer to a few basic question in this forum, so here they are:

(1) Which location is better (sound quality-wise) for rear speakers: the parcel tray or the rear door? wouldnt the door installation reduce or eliminate the stereo effect because the speakers face each other?
same thing for the front speakers too: dash board or the front door?

(2) Should a four way amp be connected to front or rear speakers (apart from the sub)? I hear divergent views on this though the majority favor the rear speakers.

(3) I understand from a debate in this forum that Co-Axial speakers are better than component speakers for the rear. An outside source told me the opposite. which is correct.

(4) Is it ok (sound quality-wise) to install the sub in the parcel tray (right in the middle, in between the 2 rear speakers)?
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Old 1st March 2008, 06:40   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
I was unable to find the answer to a few basic question in this forum, so here they are:
Man you have taken those queries out of my head.
I have the same set of questions but did want to put them till i think about an ICE upgrade.

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Old 1st March 2008, 07:34   #3
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Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
(2) Should a four way amp be connected to front or rear speakers (apart from the sub)? I hear divergent views on this though the majority favor the rear speakers.
Umm, connect the speakers of wherever you sit. If you ordinarily drive yourself (i.e. sit in the front) connect the front speakers. If you have a driver drive you and you sit in the back, connect the rear speakers.

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Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
(3) I understand from a debate in this forum that Co-Axial speakers are better than component speakers for the rear. An outside source told me the opposite. which is correct.
As a generalization, component speakers of one range are better than their coaxial counterparts in the same range.

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Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
(4) Is it ok (sound quality-wise) to install the sub in the parcel tray (right in the middle, in between the 2 rear speakers)?
Other ppl would be much better qualified to answer this, but from whatever I have read on this forum, there are two different types of subs. What you are talking about is the "free-air" sub which can be installed in the parcel tray, and is designed for such installation. But if you take a non-freeair sub and install it this way, you won't get good results - you will need an enclosure (box). For those you have two options - ported enclosures (with a hole, larger box, requires less power, but gives more boomy sound) and sealed enclosures (no hole, smaller box, requires more power, but gives much tighter bass).
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Old 1st March 2008, 07:38   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
(1) Which location is better (sound quality-wise) for rear speakers: the parcel tray or the rear door?

(2) Should a four way amp be connected to front or rear speakers (apart from the sub)?

(3) I understand from a debate in this forum that Co-Axial speakers are better than component speakers for the rear. An outside source told me the opposite. which is correct.

(4) Is it ok (sound quality-wise) to install the sub in the parcel tray (right in the middle, in between the 2 rear speakers)?
1. I think they are better in the rear parcel tray. Other than facing each other, if there are people sitting at the rear then the sound is going to get bounced off their feet and maybe the speaker will get kicked from them occasionally

2. If you are driving and you have component speakers at the front, it's only sensible to power the front components with the amplifier. However if you sit at the back you can power the rear speakers. But the problem is it will look like the sound is coming from behind. So in any case i feel it's better to power the front components from the amp. In T-BHP everyone suggests this. Whos is this majority that favour the rear speakers??

3.If you take them by the sound quality, components are better than the co-axials (and a little expensive too). The thing is that if you are driving and have the sub, then all you need is a speaker to fill the rear with sound. Also if you are using a four channel amplifier driving the front components and the sub, then the rear components will have to be powered by the HU and it is going to give poor performance. So it makes sense to choose the co-axials for the rear as fillers and powered by the HU. Hence the recommended setup is
Front - Components
Rear - Coaxials
Boot - SUB

Even if you dont have a sub, you need co-axials at the rear to get some bass into the system. But interms of performance components are better but if you consider the whole setup the co-axials are more effective.

4. If you want sound quality, then the sub needs to be in an enclosure. If you have a hatch, then the setup you mentioned, called Infinite baffle or IB, will give decent performance. But if you have a sedan then an enclosed sub in the boot will give much better sound. Again you need to choose between different types of enclosures according to how you would like your boom boom.
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Old 1st March 2008, 09:00   #5
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I think you've mostly got what you need to know My 2 cents:

1) Speakers in Parcel tray vs. speakers in Rear-door
I'd vote for the speakers in the door. If there is provision in the door, use the door.
- Parcel trays rattle after a while, if the installation is not so good.
- Rear-seat passengers will find the sound coming from their front more pleasing. They get a better soundstage, and you can play the speakers louder.
- Better space utilisation.
- You usually can install upto 6.5" speakers in the rear door (of cars with the provision). This size will be quite OK, as far as bass-support is concerned. (Considering the other advantages over parcel-tray mounting). You can put 6x9s in a parcel tray in the back, but I'd prefer the advantages of the door-location more.
- The sound does not get pulled back much from the driver seat (the parcel tray is much farther away than the rear-door from the driver).

2) Amping front speakers vs. amping rear speakers
Definitely amping the fronts. Especially if you have a sub in the back. If you amp the rears and the sub, all the power will go to the back of the car. You will have a very weak front-stage. Amping the fronts balances out the sub better. And amping the fronts will make them play much cleaner at medium-to-loud volumes.

3) Coaxials vs. Components in the rear
Well, this is a factor of budget. And a factor of the next-best-way in which the saved funds can be utilised. Everybody agrees that comps sound better than coaxials. But they also cost about double the price of coaxials in the same range. For somebody who enjoys music from the driver's seat, the increase in sound quality in the rear (by paying double the cost of a coaxial) is usually not enough to warrant the extra expense. The amount saved by installing coaxials instead of comps would be spent better in damping the front doors. Or in going towards the budget for the next upgrade.

4) Sub in parcel-tray (free-air) vs. sub in box
This is mostly a matter of taste and convenience. A sub in a parcel tray will sound quite different from a sub in a box. I personally prefer the response of a boxed sub. You will do good to check actual installs of both kinds to really understand how different the subs sound.

Free-air installs:
- Sound more boomy and lack tightness and detail (in nearly all cases). But, they also need lesser power (a not-so-powerful 2-ch amp will do nicely).
- Your boot will be free of a box at all times.
- Integrate almost automatically with the fronts, when tuned right. BAss usually sounds less localised.
- These installs are also not really easy to get right. The boot must be sealed completely from the cabin for the sub to sound as i should.

A box-install:
- Slightly more expensive because of the box, the connectors needed for removing the box when needed, and mostly because of the higher power requirements. A ported box will also generally be happy with a 2-ch amp, but will effectively get less louder than a free-air sub getting the same power. (I'm referring to entry-level to medium priced subs here all the way).
- A sub in a sealed box would need a lot more power to sound as loud (and good).
- The enhancement in detail and tightness in a box install justifies the higher cost.
- You can always set it up so you can remove the box when you need more space in the boot.
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Old 1st March 2008, 09:59   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
4) Sub in parcel-tray (free-air) vs. sub in box
This is mostly a matter of taste and convenience. A sub in a parcel tray will sound quite different from a sub in a box. I personally prefer the response of a boxed sub. You will do good to check actual installs of both kinds to really understand how different the subs sound.
Highly recommended. Note that equipment used and attention paid to installation would also determine exactly what differences you hear between the two...a good install with the right equipment & tuning will maximise the strengths of each of the 2 setups (i.e. free-air/Box) and minimise the weaknesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
(4) Is it ok (sound quality-wise) to install the sub in the parcel tray (right in the middle, in between the 2 rear speakers)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
Free-air installs:
- Sound more boomy and lack tightness and detail (in nearly all cases).
A box-install:
- The enhancement in detail and tightness in a box install justifies the higher cost.
Its a matter of taste I think - if you want very tight, dry bass that kicks very hard, then a sealed box may be a better idea.

Also, free-air installs may lose a little upper bass "kick", hence would require suitable midbass drivers in the front stage to compensate for this...

That said, IB (free-air) bass sounds warm, tactile and more natural to my ears and also blends in more easily with the front stage. It's what I prefer and also have in my car...

Quote:
Originally Posted by praveen_v View Post

4. If you want sound quality, then the sub needs to be in an enclosure. If you have a hatch, then the setup you mentioned, called Infinite baffle or IB, will give decent performance. But if you have a sedan then an enclosed sub in the boot will give much better sound. Again you need to choose between different types of enclosures according to how you would like your boom boom.
I'm no expert but as far as I'm aware, an IB install demands that the front soundwave from the sub is completely (or as close as possible) isolated from the rear soundwave, in order to avoid cancellation and hence loss of output. Not sure how easily this would be possible in a hatch.
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Old 1st March 2008, 10:22   #7
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@ CrtlAltDel, First of all, great queries as I always had these doubts in my mind as well.

@Hydrashock - Awesome explanation.
Just want to confirm - To feel the beat in your chest, should i go for a enclosed Subwoofer then?
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Old 1st March 2008, 10:25   #8
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Hydra as usual with his 2 cents.Wonderfull information buddie.even i was sceptical of the position of the speakers.
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Old 1st March 2008, 11:03   #9
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i think in cars the best way to have a wide sound stage and imaging you need to place speakers facing each other.if they are placed facing IN the cabin then one will loose the soung stage.speakers sound best when you are listening in 'on axis' position but in car audio only ONE person can experience it hence the only option is to place facing each other right in front.
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Old 1st March 2008, 13:23   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick236 View Post
...
Just want to confirm - To feel the beat in your chest, should i go for a enclosed Subwoofer then?
Yup. The sub needn't be in a sealed box itself: A properly designed ported box will give you the slam you need

A sealed box will be faster and tighter, but will need a lot more power (= a more powerful amp) than the ported box to get more or less the same loudness (as the ported box).

A free-air install won't be exactly lacking as far as "thwack" is concerned. It's just that the bass will be much softer and more ummm... enveloping (than a boxed sub's bass).
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Old 1st March 2008, 14:29   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Bong View Post
I'm no expert but as far as I'm aware, an IB install demands that the front soundwave from the sub is completely (or as close as possible) isolated from the rear soundwave, in order to avoid cancellation and hence loss of output. Not sure how easily this would be possible in a hatch.
Even I'm no expert and my little knowledge is from what i have read here

The thing is if you mount the sub in the parcel tray in a hatch, since the boot space is restricted it would serve like an enclosure (Not as good as a sealed/ported box, but an enclosure in a wider sense) and the performance will be better than the same sub in a sedan's parcel tray since it's boot is bigger. Of course the front/rear isolaton is a problem in a hatch but a good install should take care of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
1) Speakers in Parcel tray vs. speakers in Rear-door
- Rear-seat passengers will find the sound coming from their front more pleasing. They get a better soundstage, and you can play the speakers louder.

...but I'd prefer the advantages of the door-location more.

- The sound does not get pulled back much from the driver seat (the parcel tray is much farther away than the rear-door from the driver).
I was of the impression that the passengers sitting might disturb the sound..
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Old 1st March 2008, 16:14   #12
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Originally Posted by zucchero View Post
i think in cars the best way to have a wide sound stage and imaging you need to place speakers facing each other
Hmm quite confusing hai.

Earler in my car I was keeping the speakers facing each other I kept it that way for a long time. But one day I thought of experimenting the placement of drivers and its effects.

What I observed was that when I changed the location to On-axis of the listener ear there was tremendous improvement on the imaging part. Earlier one cannot make out from which side the sound is coming. But now one can clearly listen tell from which side the sound is coming. This is called Imaging.

About the soundstage. Now It is in the centre, earlier I was now where maybe it was near the lap. But now it is on the dash. The singer is on the dead centre and clear in the front. and the stage is wider than before when the speakers were facing each other.

I am not bragging or showing off I have not personally not listened to a single car which has that good Imaging and sound stage. If some one has it I would really wanna audition it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuccehro
if they are placed facing IN the cabin then one will loose the soung stage
No it will not lose sound stage. I don't understand how will it loose sound stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuccehro
.speakers sound best when you are listening in 'on axis' position but in car audio only ONE person can experience it hence the only option is to place facing each other right in front.
That can be done by facing the left speakers to the driver and the right to the co driver which I have done. So I would not genralise this statement. Only after hit and trial one can get the best result.
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Old 1st March 2008, 17:12   #13
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http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...thread-87.html


read starting from this page to make the speakers installed in the doors safer and for keeping them running for a longer time.
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Old 1st March 2008, 18:38   #14
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lbm how can you have the 'singer in the dash ' in your car when your tweeter is ON AXIS and the midrange facing upwards at the door??????
in your car its only the persion sitting in the driver seats is able to hear both the speakers.what imaging are you talkin about my bro?????
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Old 1st March 2008, 18:58   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
I think you've mostly got what you need to know My 2 cents:
2 cents he he. you sure squeeze every penny. good explanation but i want to add that comps sound better in the rear - this depends upon where the speaker are fitted. if the speaker are in rear doors then comps is the way to go..but for parcel tray you will not be able to extract the max potential.
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