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Old 13th March 2008, 12:29   #61
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Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
LBM, if I may know if not crossover slopes than what can cause this.
The drivers itself can cause it also. Blaming only on the cross over slope is not a answer.

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Good quality driver can run on a shallow slopes crossover but to achieve the best integration the driver should be close proximity to each other
which involves lot of installation effort.
How come ?

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Moreover the Dynaudio tweeter only comes with a flush mounting option which leaves very few places to mount it in the car.
Fabrication now days in not a issue. If one is buying a dyna audio component he want the best possible sound. One might not go straight with a flush mount installation.

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Thats why you will see most of Dynaudio installs running active and semi active (in case of 3 Way).What other products are you talking about and out of them how many have you A-B's in the same car on the same electronics and cables.
Try using Carbons they are having 6db slopes(shallow) and they play very nicely even when placed quite apart.

Last edited by low_bass_makker : 13th March 2008 at 12:35.
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Old 13th March 2008, 12:34   #62
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Originally Posted by BHAGWAN View Post
Putting the Tweeter just above the mid bass is technically the correct thing to do & would love to do it, however, I have had poor results in the past.
Yes the integration is better, but the sound stage is too low.
a-ha the evil ghosts of car audio strike again. Yes this one the many issues we have to deal with or live with in the car.

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Re "Moniker Names" : I find it little strange calling any human being "Bhagwan"
that's why i love the nick LBM gave (God-Ji).

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'B' is good
How about "Bags"? :-)

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Originally Posted by BHAGWAN View Post
I am sure there must be a lot of 200 K + Installs in Mumbai....B & T's offer was not of much use to me. It was already installed in my cars.
B&T was offering you to audition your own cars? I thought he knew you?

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Originally Posted by BHAGWAN View Post
What would you have opted for ?
I got the Dynes @ Rs. 30/- K
I could have gone up to 40/- K
What would you suggest up to that price point ?
Illusion Carbon (B&T) or Hertz Mille (Gunbir) are in the same price range.

BTW I took care of the name issue too.
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Old 13th March 2008, 12:41   #63
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aha dyns-my first PURE love.i have not listened to many set ups but whatever i have listened the dyns literally KILLS all others(my experience so no arguments please).
having installed the dyns recently i would like to put my experiences.firstly the dyns need LOADS and LOADS of power to do what they can.they are a very nuetral speakers so installation plays a major role.slight changes in the positioning of the drivers can cause great differences.
i completely agree with autophile.my experience says that if one is using a 2 way dyn set running passive then its better to put both the drivers as close to each other as possible.the dyns need time to BREAK IN.company claims around 100 hours!!!!!!
the one word to describe the dyns are-detailing,detailing and detailing.a bad recording will sound HORRIBLE.every part of music is amplified to the way as it should be.
drawbacks-
the dyns really need a good high-end powerfull amps to run and a very good installation and placement of the drivers.
conclusion(mine)-the best speaker I have ever heard!!!!!!
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Old 13th March 2008, 12:46   #64
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
Try using Carbons they are having 6db slopes(shallow) and they play very nicely even when placed quite apart.
I thought Carbons used 12db slopes. B&T can clear this.

BTW B&T I just got a great idea for a the name of a speaker company. "Bags and Rags". The rest I shall leave to your fertile immagination.

LBM, ifi the Carbons use 6db slopes htis is one reason why they could integrate well despite the tweeter and mid being some distance apart. I have been toying with speaker slopes in the car for a while now. the shallow and the tweeter has little protection, the woofer's break up nodes are not fitlered and the illusion of space gets a bit warped. too steep and integration suffers.

LBM also remember these slopes we refer to are only electrical slopes. Combined with the natural roll off of the drivers the effective slope is often 3rd order (18db/oct) or more. In fact most slopes are quasi-order slopes as the roll off is not linear. driver roll off itself is not linear, and off axis respnse curves are even worse.

One options is to have a 3 way where the mid and tweeter are close to each other with steep slopes and the midbass is lower down but with a shallower slope. This would however involve a greater degree of complexity in XO design. Unless one knows of a mid that can go from 300-3k and has a small radiating surface and limited depth. I wonder if a scaled down version of Typamy's LAT can work here.
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Old 13th March 2008, 12:47   #65
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lbm can you please specify your statement about the crossovers and drivers a little bit.eager to learn!!!
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Old 13th March 2008, 12:50   #66
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
The drivers itself can cause it also. Blaming only on the cross over slope is not a answer.

How come ?

Fabrication now days in not a issue. If one is buying a dyna audio component he want the best possible sound. One might not go straight with a flush mount installation.

Try using Carbons they are having 6db slopes(shallow) and they play very nicely even when placed quite apart.
LBM its better we state facts here :

Are you trying to say that Dynaudio drivers are so bad that they are responsible for this. To enlighten you there are large number of loudspeaker manufacturer who buys raw drivers from reputed manufactureres like Dynaudio, Scan Speak, SEAS, vifa etc. If you comapre any two loudspeakers using the same drivers they will sound different because the way designer has tuned them and primarily because of different crossover design, not forgetting the cabinet here.

Mr 'B' can also help you in understanding this as he has got lot of hands on experience in home audio, he can explain you that crossover does play important role in the final out come of the sound.

With flush mount i meant that tweeter is not supplied with any other accessories except flush mount and with 56 mm mounting depth. It can only be mounted by cutting door panels, kick panels and very few sail and A pillars.

Illusion vs Dynaudio interesting. I would like to believe the unbiased opinion people who have actually used them, rather A-B'd them. What say B&T.

Last edited by Autophile : 13th March 2008 at 12:52.
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Old 13th March 2008, 12:53   #67
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Originally Posted by zucchero View Post
lbm can you please specify your statement about the crossovers and drivers a little bit.eager to learn!!!
Navin Ji has said a lot about it.
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Old 13th March 2008, 13:22   #68
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Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
LBM its better we state facts here :

Are you trying to say that Dynaudio drivers are so bad that they are responsible for this. To enlighten you there are large number of loudspeaker manufacturer who buys raw drivers from reputed manufacturers like Dynaudio, Scan Speak, SEAS, vifa etc. If you comapre any two loudspeakers using the same drivers they will sound different because the way designer has tuned them and primarily because of different crossover design, not forgetting the cabinet here.
When did I say that Dyna is a bad set. I think you got me all wrong here buddy. People who owns them swear for there quality of sound they make. See Zuchero Singh, he is quite happy with his speakers. I was just saying that there is some problem when the tweeter and midbass is placed far apart. But then it can be easily overcome by changing the phase of the tweeter or the midbass simple. Why are you after me on that. See a reviewer also faced a problem he also changed the phase and continued.

Dynaudio Esotec System 242 - Manual and Setup - Car Audio and Electronics

Check out the last paragraph. Hope you understand what I am trying to say here.


However, at first listen I noticed a lull in the response between the tweeter and midrange. To correct this, I swapped the phase of the tweeters, which yielded a synergistic response between the drivers and stabilized the overall image. My guess is that either something is mislabeled in the set or that Dynaudio is expecting the user to place the speakers in typical factory locations with the tweeters up high and the woofers in the lower door. Doing this could possibly result in enough distance to place the speakers back in phase with each other by the time they hit the listener.

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With flush mount i meant that tweeter is not supplied with any other accessories except flush mount and with 56 mm mounting depth. It can only be mounted by cutting door panels, kick panels and very few sail and A pillars.
Which tweeter are we talking about MD 100 or MD 102 both have a mounting depth of 29 mm. Except if you wanna push here the Esotar which I think we are not discussing has of a 55mm not 56mm.

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Illusion vs Dynaudio interesting. I would like to believe the unbiased opinion people who have actually used them, rather A-B'd them. What say B&T.
Sure I would go for Illusion Carbons as I found them more sweet and laid back when compared to Dyna`s.
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Old 13th March 2008, 15:04   #69
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LBM. I am talking out of my own experience using my own ears not on the info posted on internet by some reviewer. The tuning goes beyond just flipping a phase. Flipping the phase is the first and easiest step to align any two drivers.

Re the mounting depth I typed it wrong. Wrote mounting hole dia instead of depth.
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Old 13th March 2008, 15:11   #70
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Sure I would go for Illusion Carbons as I found them more sweet and laid back when compared to Dyna`s.
Was it a A-B comparison? Any other set of ears present apart from yours in the comparison?
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Old 13th March 2008, 16:06   #71
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LBM. I am talking out of my own experience using my own ears not on the info posted on internet by some reviewer. The tuning goes beyond just flipping a phase. Flipping the phase is the first and easiest step to align any two drivers.
Same here. I also did the same in Zhucchero`s car and I agree with the reviewer.
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Old 13th March 2008, 16:40   #72
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lbm as far as i remember after we did tunning it started sounding crappy.it was autophile who almost spend hours re installing my midbasses with proper wiring and making sure that the hu was running FLAT.
thank you jb for your unconditional help and guidance.
yes indeed carbon are fantastic and they sound very sweet.its just a matter of personal taste.
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Old 13th March 2008, 16:47   #73
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lbm as far as i remember after we did tunning it started sounding crappy.it was autophile who almost spend hours re installing my midbasses with proper wiring and making sure that the hu was running FLAT.
thank you jb for your unconditional help and guidance.
yes indeed carbon are fantastic and they sound very sweet.its just a matter of personal taste.
What happened when the last time when we met your mid bass were wired out of-phase and who detected the problem and helped you rectified it. Thanks for the support man I will consider it the last time from my side.
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Old 13th March 2008, 16:55   #74
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lbm,guruji i completely agree that you sorted out the phase problem and guided me during installation.a big thankyou to you too sirji.
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Old 13th March 2008, 17:21   #75
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Originally Posted by zucchero View Post
lbm as far as i remember after we did tunning it started sounding crappy.it was autophile who almost spend hours re installing my midbasses with proper wiring and making sure that the hu was running FLAT.
thank you jb for your unconditional help and guidance.
yes indeed carbon are fantastic and they sound very sweet.its just a matter of personal taste.
You are welcome Zucchero . ND's cannot touch Dyns in detail, tonality and midbass authority, not to mention it is an unfair comparo as ND's cost half of Dyn's.

Rest I never deny that speaker is a very personal choice.
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