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Old 18th May 2008, 18:15   #1
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Default Need help choose new car for old ICE

Hi! I am thinking of buying a new car in a few months & trying to decide between an Ikon & a Dzire. I plan to keep the old Santro for a while longer, but want to transfer the ICE (Alpine 9887 HU, Hertz 3-way components, ID 12" sub in a sealed box & Audison SRx5 amp) into the new vehicle.
Would one/ both these cars present any serious problems during the above ICE shift?
I guess the HU would be a straight fit in the Ikon, but a dash-kit would be needed in the Dzire, which shouldn't be a big issue.
I believe the Ikon doors take 5" x 7" drivers & the Dzire doors 6" ones. Will fitting 6.5" speakers involve MDF rings only or door-cutting too?
Would the 3" midrange speakers also go into the doors? Would I need to isolate them from the midbasses? So custom-built door-cards?
The Dzire has stock locations for the tweeters. But where should they be fitted in the Ikon?
If I choose the Dzire Vxi (can't think of a vehicle without power-windows & central-locking after having them in the humble Santro), can I remove the HU & speakers from the new car & fit them into the Santro? Or would it be a better idea to select the Lxi & try to get the original power-windows & central-locking fitted at the dealer's workshop? I know the last question is a bit below the belt in the ICE section & apologise for it.
Or should I simply chicken out & get myself another Santro?
Thanks in advance.
nura.
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Old 18th May 2008, 18:26   #2
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The Dzire will probable need a LOT of damping.
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Old 18th May 2008, 18:37   #3
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Don't you want to consider the Tata sedans?

Maybe you should look at the experimentation that LBM did when he was trying to optimize his 3-way mounting. He mounted both the mid and the tweeter high on the door.

Maybe you could think of placing the mid and the tweeter in a custom pod in the crook of the A-pillar, or in the conventional mirror pod location.

Compare the economics of stock as well as after-market power windows and central locking, before you settle on the model. The stock ones are usually better integrated.

Shouldn't be a big deal removing the Dzire HU and mounting it in the Santro, unless the Dzire one has an integrated front plate meant for Dzire. If the mid-bass driver size is the same, shouldn't be a problem fixing it in the Santro.

Last edited by DerAlte : 18th May 2008 at 18:42.
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Old 18th May 2008, 20:40   #4
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@nura, more or less the same issues I had in my mind when I was thinking of changing my Palio.

The installation challenge will be the 3-way speakers (specifically the midrange) and not the HU or amp or anything else.

IMO the best car (with a boot) to ICE is a Verna. Great metal, great plastics, minimum damping. Rather than a Santro, an i10 would be a better choice. So would be a Getz.

In either case, the Midrange will be a bit difficult to install, but it can be done (without cutting the door), if you get a small FG pod made, or if you get a pod-like spacer made from MDF (paste & screw multiple spacer rings together and cut around them to shape). The pod can be screwed to the door. The midrange is pretty small and shallow, so we will not need to cut the door pad.

Making custom door-pads for the newer cars will be tough, without major FG work, as the door-pads are not straight, and are moulded to shapes in plastic.

Now coming back to the car, I settled for a Swift for a whole lot of reasons not totally ICE related. But I did consult extensively with my installer. The Swift has a pretty deep dashboard with quite a bit of flat area. And the corner between the dash, the windscreen and the A-pillar gives quite a bit of possibilities for housing the midrange and tweeter in a pod, without affecting visibility too much. The downside is that actually getting a pod done there might cause the mids and tweets to fire a bit into the windshield (if mounted flat, firing up/angled up), causing smear. But my installer and I both think that this can be avoided to a large extent.

In my case the midrange is 4" (Energy Series). But you have it a bit easier, because your midrange is 3", and a bit shallower (Hi-Energy series). So lesser issues.

You can also go for a door-pad install, with pods for the midranges fixed there (like LBM's current setup).

I will be getting my ICE reinstalled in the Swift in about 2-3 month's time, so that might be of help (if you decide to go for a DZire -- A DZire and Swift are identical inside). I doubt if you'll get delivery by then anyway The DZire will take 6.5" midbasses in the doors, no issues there.

Be warned that a DZire will need a looooooooot of damping, at least double that of other cars. I'm looking at about 15K as a damping budget for the Swift. I'll also get underbody coating from 3M or Dinitrol done, and that will help with sound-deadening (lessening road-noise) a little bit.

Another option is the Fiesta -- the stock pods are high up on the door panel, and take 5x7 speakers. Perfect position for a midrange & tweeter. A custom spacer can be made (in 5x7 sixe) which will take your 3" midrange and a tweeter, and enclose them both inside the stock grille. But installing the midbass will be an issue -- the door will not take a midbass in the usual position (lower forward corner) without a gigantic spacer (if at all it can be done). Maybe, just maybe, the midbasses can be installed under the seats in small boxes, but well, how the whole setup will sound when it all comes together, is something we can't predict in advance.

I'm not sure if the Ikon has the same door-pad setup as the Fiesta. The old ones (up to 3 years older) did not.

As DerAlte said, the TATA sedans could be the perfect answer, if you're OK with TATA, and if they are like the Indica. If they are (like the Indica), you get a Midbass pod in the door, and a 5.25" pod in the dash. Perfect. The tweeter can be installed close by to the midrange (which will be in the 5.25" pod).

All the best in choosing the car

EDIT: Dash kits for the Swift ZXI and the DZires with the integrated HU are easily available now. My installer had done quite a few HU replacements in both over the last few weeks.

Last edited by hydrashok : 18th May 2008 at 20:42.
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Old 18th May 2008, 21:25   #5
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Quote:
EDIT: Dash kits for the Swift ZXI and the DZires with the integrated HU are easily available now. My installer had done quite a few HU replacements in both over the last few weeks.
custom made or branded? if latter, which brand?
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Old 18th May 2008, 23:42   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
custom made or branded? if latter, which brand?
Not custom-made. Dunno what brand. Certainly not Scosche or such. Basically the entire central panel (of the dash), including the A/C vents, and the integrated stereo get replaced with the central panel of the LXi/VXi Swifts.

A clip-thing/metal-frame to hold the stereo properly in place needs to be custom-made, though. I haven't seen this yet, but my installer told me this.
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Old 19th May 2008, 00:56   #7
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Guys I have a dome midrange which is a complete unit itself we don't need any enclosure for it. But in your cases you need a good enclosure for the midrange to perform to there best potential. So try getting the FG enclosure would yield the best results.
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Old 19th May 2008, 10:51   #8
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LBM, please share the experience of your experimentation on driver positioning.
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Old 19th May 2008, 12:32   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
LBM, please share the experience of your experimentation on driver positioning.
It is one of the trickiest part in ICE. A little change here and there will affect a lot.

Earlier I used to run by setup both passive and the driver were placed off-axis to the listener. But now it is both active and on-axis. A very big difference is felt when going from on-to-off axis. I would seriously recommend everyone to at lest place there tweeter on-axis to improve the sound. I helps in good imaging and widen sound stage.

With placing the driver on-axis there comes the problem of level matching of the drivers. Like in a 2-way if the tweeter is on-axis and the mid-bass in off-axis there will be lots of difference in sound out. So setting the gains would help you more on this part. This was one of the reason to go active.

Rest it is a long topic but I need other to comment on the same.
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Old 19th May 2008, 13:22   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
It is one of the trickiest part in ICE. A little change here and there will affect a lot.

With placing the driver on-axis there comes the problem of level matching of the drivers. Like in a 2-way if the tweeter is on-axis and the mid-bass in off-axis there will be lots of difference in sound out. So setting the gains would help you more on this part. This was one of the reason to go active.

Rest it is a long topic but I need other to comment on the same.
Most car component systems are 2 way. The crossover being around 2-6K which menas that about 70-85% of the music energy is being produced by a driver that is firing at your knees! Fortunately for us most midbass drivers have pretty good off-axis reposne till atleast 1K and the off-axis drop is only rally noticed beyond 1.5K (some better drivers can strech this to 3-4K).

For this example lets assume a good midbass that has not breakup or off axis issues till 3K and a good tweeter that can be crossed as low as 2Khz/12db without strain. The XO for arguments sake could be a 12db/octave L-R network.

In most stock locations the midbass driver is about 16-18" from the tweeter. Given the above woofer/tweeter/XO combination, from 1K to 4K you will have 2 distinct soruces of sound. The tweeter will be only 12db down at 1K and the woofer wil be only 12db down at 4K. The wavelength of a 1Khz sine wave is about 14" (at 4K the wavelength is about 3.5"). So there will be marginal lobing related distortions from 1K getting progressively worse till 4K. To maintain vertical polar uniformity, the inter-driver (c-c) spacing must be shorter than the wavelength of the acoustical crossover frequency.

In addition to the above lobing distortions the sound will arrive at the ear at different times (the tweeter usually being closer to the ear than the woofer).

As one moves to a 3 way system some of these problem are reduced but if care is not taken (in the system degins) you can introduce a whole new set of problems. Care must be taken to keep the crossover frequencies far apart so that the elements of one driver's crossover do not create aliansing effects to the elements in other drivers. This usually means a resonably wide bandwidth midrange. The steeper the corssover the greater this issue. Shallow (1st order) crossovers escape this but then driver choice and placement becomes all the more critical.

By going active we resolve many of these issues but have the penalty of having to deal with multiple amplifiers and an electronic crossover.

a basic primer on crossovers
active loudspeakers [english]
Google-meister (aka LBM) can dig up much more.

So why do not hear much of all this?
1. In a car there is too much going to pay attention to these finer nuances
2. Many of us dont know what to listen for
3. Many of us tolerate these limitations for the sake of domestic harmony, aesthetics, and the diffculty is making custom door/kick panles that can accomodate the drivers in acoustically correct locations.
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Old 19th May 2008, 14:39   #11
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Well, I had hoped LBM will catch the drift about the physical placement (base of A-pillar or mirror pod or door etc.; he has done a lot of placement testing).

If we can come up with a practical solution, maybe @nura will be able to visualize and get something made. I am getting visions of a custom FG enclosure the way Sam conjured up something that held a tweeter (he has a photo-essay somewhere in the DIY section). The next best is the same at the bass of the A-pillar (for the moment ignoring likely smearing)
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Old 19th May 2008, 15:16   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The next best is the same at the bass of the A-pillar (for the moment ignoring likely smearing)
Practical locations for cars that dont have tweeter pods:
1. A Pillar (flush mount) - I consider this the second best option for mosst cars. There is limited depth so some larger tweeters (dynaudio, ScanSpeak, etc..) wont fit

2. Door Panel (flush mount) - probably the best as it locates the tweeter closer to the midbass but many doors wont accept this as they dont provide any viable space.

3. Dash (surface mount facing listener) - not the best aesthetic solution and is often used when the door or A pillar wont accept the tweeter (usually large tweeters like Dynuadio, ScanSpeak, etc..).

4. Dash (surface mount facing windscreen) - ofnte used with TS20 tweeters - The only tweeter that benefits from this install is the TS20. Mostly becuase the listener is off axis and partly becuase the ragged on-axis respnse actually sounds nicer after being "smeared" (sometimes 2 negatives make one positive).

To make an exhaustive list for each make-model of car is too cumbersome so I guess we'll deal with tweeter placement on a case to case basis.
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Old 19th May 2008, 15:58   #13
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^^^ ... and then there is the mid too, Navin. @nura has 3-way's!!!
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Old 19th May 2008, 19:19   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Practical locations for cars that dont have tweeter pods:
1. A Pillar (flush mount) - I consider this the second best option for mosst cars. There is limited depth so some larger tweeters (dynaudio, ScanSpeak, etc..) wont fit
....

3. Dash (surface mount facing listener) - not the best aesthetic solution and is often used when the door or A pillar wont accept the tweeter (usually large tweeters like Dynuadio, ScanSpeak, etc..)...
I'd go with a combination of 1 & 3 for the mids and the tweets (housed in a single pod), if the door-panel install is not preferred.

There's an Innova project in the oven at a place I know about, that will be having some serious stuff installed this way (3-way comps running active). I'll be using that car as a reference to see how the setup sounds, and if I like it, I'll try the same in my car too, with my current equipment
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Old 19th May 2008, 21:36   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
By going active we resolve many of these issues but have the penalty of having to deal with multiple amplifiers and an electronic crossover.
Navinji,
i had done couple of active systems in a very low budget,but nothing for the car - could you explain the difference in car and home listening experience.
Quote:
Many of us don't know what to listen for
could you explain more
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