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Old 11th November 2008, 09:10   #1
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Default A noob's quest to ICE his Accord

Yay physics and engineering...Stuff I have no idea about...

Ok so I'm planning on getting some good ICE in my car on a budget [Contradiction I guess]
I drive an 04 Honda Accord 2.4 MT. Stock ICE is ok, components up front, and coaxials at the back. I have to keep my HU stock as I don't want to loose my automatic climate control screen nor do I want my convenient steering controls rendered useless!

So please let the suggestions flow...
I listen to Hip Hop, Reggae and RnB [98%], Hindi [1%], Rock/Metal/Electronic [1%]

I have a few n00b questions...

1) IF I have an amp that puts out 100W RMS [or more], and speakers that accept 80W RMS (200W max) Will the speaker blow due to the extra 20W of power?

2) When is it necessary to install a capacitor? If I don't need one for my basic setup, can I still get one installed [It looks cool!]

3) Where in mumbai can I audition Polk Audio components?

4) I have a budget of USD 500 - 50 of which is for cables and misc stuff...
450 is for amp and components...[Buying stuff from the states, Thanksgiving-Christmas-New Years sales]

I have shortlisted the following:
Polk Audio MOMO MMC6500 6-1/2" Component Systems Car Speakers Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix

Polk Audio db6501 6-1/2" 2-way Component System 6-1/2" Component Systems Car Speakers Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix

Infinity Kappa 60.9cs (609cs) 6-1/2" Component Systems Car Speakers Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix

Alpine SPR-17S (spr17s) 6-1/2" Component Systems Car Speakers Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix

Amp -
Alpine MRP-F600 (mrpf600) Multi-channel Amps Car Amplifiers Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix

Kicker ZX850.4 (06zx8504) Multi-channel Amps Car Amplifiers Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix

JBL GTO1004 Multi-channel Amps Car Amplifiers Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix

Could someone please let me know Indian prices for the above products if applicable?

Also if I alot 250-300 USD for amp and 150-200 USD for components, what is the best setup I can get? Best bang for my buck.

Looking forward to a slew of replies

cheers:
DocG
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Old 11th November 2008, 09:20   #2
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Why are you looking at the same stuff available in India? There's some great options and pricing in the States!

You can get an Accord dash kit and integrate an aftermarket HU with your setup and not loose all the features you were talking about.

Id say get JL mono / Sub combo

Baaki the GooRoo's will come along and confuse you !!
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Old 11th November 2008, 11:04   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0uljah View Post
Why are you looking at the same stuff available in India? There's some great options and pricing in the States
Agreed. the US offers much more variety and maybe even better pricing. However warranties of equipment bought there will not be valid in India.

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1) IF I have an amp that puts out 100W RMS and speakers that accept 80W RMS Will the speaker blow?

2) When is it necessary to install a capacitor?

3) Where in mumbai can I audition Polk Audio components?
1. No.
2. If you want one becuase it looks cool go for it. If you wiring is in good shape the cap is not required.
3. Polk audio is available at many dealers from opera house to santa cruz and beyond. Listen to Polk, Alpine, and Infinity before you decide.

BTW the Kicker amp is discontinued.
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Old 12th November 2008, 14:14   #4
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Yes the US does offer great deals, and has more options than India, however I want to go in for a reputed company, and a brand which is available in India, in case I need to get it repaired etc...

I don't mind having waranties in the US, as there are people coming and going every month etc...Also when amps and comps are concerned, is warranty that big a deal?

The Kicker amp is still on sale, however may be an old model...

As far as amp is concerned, should I go in for the Kicker as it's more powerful [But doesn't have speaker level inputs] or the Alpine?

IMO both will have enough power to run the front comps and a sub...

Alpine - 100W X 2 @4ohm + 300W X 1 @ 4ohm
Kicker - 175W X 2 @4ohm + 425W X 1 @ 4ohm...

Option C:
Get the Alpine and power my comps and rear speakers with that, also get this for a sub (or 2)
Sony XM-D9001GTR (xmd9001gtr) Mono Subwoofer Amps Car Amplifiers Car Audio and Video - Sonic Electronix

Mono block with 550W RMS, reviews have said that it's great for running 2 DVC 12" subs and doesn't heat up, trip etc...

What say? Also some other suggestions are always welcome...

DocG
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Old 15th April 2009, 03:30   #5
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what's happening about your ice g? The thread just got stalled before anything fun happened :-(
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Old 15th April 2009, 11:58   #6
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Dude franky ji, trust me, this thread was written during my complete n00bness stage with regards to ICE. Stuff is coming down from the OOSAA[USA] mostly in June.

I will meet up with u soon man, we'll have a good little discussion, I'm staying away from brands not represented in India, no matter how tempting their specs look, Hifonics, Crunch, PA, etc, reviews are good, but some installers here keep telling me that you get what you pay for etc...

So as it stands I'd like to surprise everyone, including myself, all I can say at this point is that it's a budget system, but will be good enough to blow your socks off! Will try to get the install looking as stock as possible, but the subs will get a bit of bling...

Last edited by navin : 15th April 2009 at 13:15.
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Old 8th May 2009, 13:39   #7
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OK guys, it's been 7 months since I started this thread, and it ended up going nowhere. I understand that because the usual masala and photo-shoto is nonexistent here, but I'm still not going to divulge any details of my budget system.

Waiting for it to be a pleasant surprise to all my chamkeela fans.

Getting chakkas boofers and comps that will make champa cry.

Anyway enough ranting, I have some serious questions which would help me increase my level of understanding in the realms of ICE

Q.1) OK now I've been reading up on some headunits, the Eclipse 7200MK2, the Pioneer P80RS2 etc. These HUs have copper plated chassis, how is this supposed to help their SQ? and if this plating shating helps then what would be the effect if we wrap copper wire around a regular HU? will it provide similar shielding?

Q.2) The 7200MK2 is a dead head. Well other players with inbuilt amps have the option to turn of the internal amps while using external ones. What then is so special about having a dead head. Isn't it the same thing? Or is someone gaining on SQ with the dead head?

Q.3) Ok if a ultra low frequency transducer is rated at 500w RMS and 1000w MAX, and you feed it 600w RMS, is it necessary that the manufacturer has provided enough headroom and the sub wont blow? [Talking about cheap subs like Pioneer or JBL, Sony!]

Q.4) Same as question 3 only now what about more high end brands? like ID, RF, DLS etc...

Q.5) If I run a total of 1300-1400 W RMS @ 4 ohm in my car, how badly will it stress my electricals? I'm planning on a capacitor, and also the amps accept 4 gauge wiring. Would 4awg wiring be adequate?

Q.6) Running a certain wattage at say 4 ohm will produce a lesser load on a system than running the same wattage at say 1 ohm. Is that true?

Thanks guys, my ICE knowledge has really matured in the last 7 months or so, interesting and complicated bugger ICE is...

DocG
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Old 8th May 2009, 17:06   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
Q.2) The 7200MK2 is a dead head. Well other players with inbuilt amps have the option to turn of the internal amps while using external ones. What then is so special about having a dead head. Isn't it the same thing? Or is someone gaining on SQ with the dead head?

Q.3) Ok if a ultra low frequency transducer is rated at 500w RMS and 1000w MAX, and you feed it 600w RMS, is it necessary that the manufacturer has provided enough headroom and the sub wont blow? [Talking about cheap subs like Pioneer or JBL, Sony!]

Q.4) Same as question 3 only now what about more high end brands? like ID, RF, DLS etc...

Q.5) If I run a total of 1300-1400 W RMS @ 4 ohm in my car, how badly will it stress my electricals? I'm planning on a capacitor, and also the amps accept 4 gauge wiring. Would 4awg wiring be adequate?

Q.6) Running a certain wattage at say 4 ohm will produce a lesser load on a system than running the same wattage at say 1 ohm. Is that true?

Thanks guys, my ICE knowledge has really matured in the last 7 months or so, interesting and complicated bugger ICE is...

DocG
2. There is no internal amplification. So whatever power is going to the Subs/Compos, is completely from the HU only. Some HUs also have the option of Amp Cancellation.

3. Firstly is it at 14.4v or at around 12-13v?
But in both the case it wont be a problem. Adjusting can be done through the gains though.

4. No problem in any brands

5. Go through this thread. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/diy-do...ick-wires.html

By that it seems you would require atleast 2awg
6. I dont think so.
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Old 8th May 2009, 19:29   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
Q.1) ...copper plated chassis, how is this supposed to help their SQ? and if this plating shating helps then what would be the effect if we wrap copper wire around a regular HU? will it provide similar shielding?

Q.2) The 7200MK2 is a dead head. Well other players with inbuilt amps have the option to turn of the internal amps while using external ones. What then is so special about having a dead head. Isn't it the same thing? Or is someone gaining on SQ with the dead head?

Q.3) Ok if a ultra low frequency transducer is rated at 500w RMS and 1000w MAX, and you feed it 600w RMS, is it necessary that the manufacturer has provided enough headroom and the sub wont blow? [Talking about cheap subs like Pioneer or JBL, Sony!]

Q.4) Same as question 3 only now what about more high end brands? like ID, RF, DLS etc...

Q.5) If I run a total of 1300-1400 W RMS @ 4 ohm in my car, how badly will it stress my electricals? I'm planning on a capacitor, and also the amps accept 4 gauge wiring. Would 4awg wiring be adequate?

Q.6) Running a certain wattage at say 4 ohm will produce a lesser load on a system than running the same wattage at say 1 ohm. Is that true?
1) I'm a bit confused about this too. From what I've read, a Copper chassis does not directly contribute to SQ as such. The copper chassis is meant to keep interference to the minimum and prevent noise from getting introduced. Copper helps get the best grounding (which helps reduce noise/whine). I remember reading somebody's observation that HUs with Burr Brown DACs are the ones that generally need extra 'support' from a copper chassis as Burr Brown DACs tend to introduce more noise into the system than other DACs. No idea if this is so. I doubt whether wrapping copper wire around a HU's chassis will improve anything

2) HUs of the quality of the dead heads would never see their internal amps used anyway, so the need to provide an internal amp is moot. Dead heads are generally meant/designed to drive active setups where all the amplification comes from outside. So no use in adding stuff into the HU that will never get used. Helps cut costs. Another aspect is that by switching off the internal amps in HUs, we get to concentrate all the power into giving maximum pre-out voltage. The dead heads go by the same principle, I guess.

3) The entry-level subs of the brands you've mentioned might take 600w RMS input (subs rated at 500w-1000w max) if you are careful with the gains and with the volume control. I wouldn't try this, though.

4) Subs of the better brands you've mentioned will have no problem taking input from a 600w amp. I know for a fact that the IDQ, rated at 400w max will take 600w in a sealed box without any problems.

5) 1.3 to 1.4kw @ 4ohms will not put a lot of stress on the car, as long as you wire the amps right. 2AWG to 0AWG wiring will do you fine. 4AWG will be a bit less if you plan to take 4AWg from the battery and distribute it. But taking 2AWG from the battery and distributing two 4AWG wires to two amps should be fine, if the amp's manuals say you need give them only a 4AWG power wire. A capacitor will not really be necessary, but will be a plus, if you plan to play a lot of bassy numbers at high volumes.

6) A healthy electrical system and battery will be able to manage a 1 ohm load, if you've got the right gauge of power wires (for the power demand) and wired the setup properly. A 1 ohm setup will need 0AWG power wires to function problem free.

A 4ohm setup with the right gauge of power wire (for the power demand) will definitely make less demands and put lesser stress than the 1 ohm setup. I'd personally avoid a 1 ohm setup and max out at a 2 ohm setup for a SQ system.

I'm basing all this simply on the kinds of setups I've seen and listened to & on what I've read, & heard from gurus, and not on actual technical knowledge. Like you, I also have close to zero knowledge of physics and engineering.

Last edited by hydrashok : 8th May 2009 at 19:31.
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Old 11th May 2009, 09:08   #10
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Was hoping some of the gurus would chime in here as I believe it's in the right section?!?

Anyway I'd really like to see what you car audio/physics guys have to say about question 1 and 6 above.

To add a few more questions to the mix:

Q.7)In layman's terms (Something I can't seem to find on the net) - What is damping factor of an amp, what difference does it make to SQ? (I believe SQ amps have very high ratings for this statistic)

Q.8) I've read that running a 2 or 1 ohm load will reduce the damping factor delivered by the amp even if it's 1 ohm stable. Why is this?
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Old 11th May 2009, 09:26   #11
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answer to your question 1, that's the best answer you can get what hydra had given, mainly it cut down the noise, answer for the question 6 : yes higher the oh lesser the load that is true.

more on damping factor read this.
Damping factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11th May 2009, 09:26   #12
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This might be of some help. Damping Factor | AudiophileWiki
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Old 11th May 2009, 10:32   #13
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Ok, thanks guys but like I said, I've tried to do some reading already. Wikipedia was the first place I checked.

Sorry but at the risk of sounding like a fool, I know 0 in physics, and most of the stuff on that site just confuses me more!

Could someone please help me break all this down to ek dum layman terms? Please anyone?

DocG

**Sorry guys but I know my medicine and my cars, but this physics is just way beyond me!**
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Old 11th May 2009, 13:22   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Q.1) ... copper plated chassis, how is this supposed to help their SQ? and if this plating shating helps then what would be the effect if we wrap copper wire around a regular HU? will it provide similar shielding?
Absence of noise is part of 'SQ'. The 5-side metal shielding that all HUs have is enough to block common radiated interference - one need not wire cu wire around the HU. The copper plating is likely to make the heat dissipation better, being a good heat conductor

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Q.2) ... What then is so special about having a dead head. Isn't it the same thing? Or is someone gaining on SQ with the dead head?
No relation between SQ and 'dead head', other than innovative marketing. Even if one does not switch off the internal amp when using an external amp, it does not make a diff to SQ. Some difference in power saving, if you are the 'green' type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Q.3) Ok if a ultra low frequency transducer is rated at 500w RMS and 1000w MAX, and you feed it 600w RMS, ...
There is nothing 'cheap' about Pio, JBL, Sony etc. - they are appropriately priced. The problem is that most of the others are inappropriately / disproportionately priced, i.e. with a few exceptions, bang for the buck may be psychological only!

Manufacturer's designed headroom is indirectly indicated in the 'Rated' and 'Max' power ratings - Rated is Continuous, Max is short term overload. An amp will push only so much current into the sub that the music passage demands - one does not 'feed' a fixed amount of power. Headroom is notional. If the coil system (coil, former, ventilation etc.) is constantly undergoing overload (heat build-up) it will get a 'heat stroke' sometime or the other. This can practically happen within rated load and suitable amp power also, based on music passage. Obviously it is better not to assume headroom was given by manufacturer, and keep amp power a bit lower than the sub rating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Q.4) Same as question 3 only now what about more high end brands? like ID, RF, DLS etc...
The same. None of them provide electrical v/s heat data, so it is a matter of conjecture whose coil system tolerates heat overload better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Q.5) If I run a total of 1300-1400 W RMS @ 4 ohm in my car, how badly will it stress my electricals? I'm planning on a capacitor, and also the amps accept 4 gauge wiring. Would 4awg wiring be adequate?...
Usually the effect is on voltage drop on the 12V line. Capacitor is for the (supposed) benefit to ICE. If ICE draws more than what the alternator is able to supply, there is a dip in the 12V line, and the amp gives less output. Search for the discussion on whether capacitors are necessary or not.

Though it sounds costlier, a higher gauge power wiring does help in reducing the voltage drop at very high current / power levels.

Caution: if the alternator is loaded too much it will gradually fail over months if the difference between designed load and additional load is too much - again heat consideration. However, unless your car is the sound system for a drive-in theater, the power excess is average 200W, not the theoretical 1400W, for normal listening, increasing to 800W average for blasting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Q.6) Running a certain wattage at say 4 ohm will produce a lesser load on a system than running the same wattage at say 1 ohm. Is that true?
No, the load is the same as 'wattage' drawn. However, to get the same wattage the 4ohms system will have to play at twice the volume as on the 1ohm system. In this situation the current in the 4ohm system is half that of the 1ohm system, but the voltage is double.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Q.7)In layman's terms ... What is damping factor of an amp, what difference does it make to SQ? (I believe SQ amps have very high ratings for this statistic) ...
The speed with which the amp can control the current flow based on the demand of the music, i.e. sharp bass notes which demand a lot of power flow in *very* short times (milliseconds). If the amp can't, 'boom' becomes 'aphooomm' (well, a bit exaggerated, but something like that). Yes, high rating is desired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Q.8) I've read that running a 2 or 1 ohm load will reduce the damping factor delivered by the amp even if it's 1 ohm stable. Why is this?
The DF of an amp is what it is. Lower currents are less demanding than higher, and lower resistance produces higher currents.
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Old 13th May 2009, 00:35   #15
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thanks for all the replies guys.
Am learning a lot.

Another question which has been on my mind.

What makes an SQ amp an SQ amp? How is it that a steg or genesis is any better than a jbl or sony.
My understanding is that they amplify a signal from the HU to drive speakers. So 2 amps a jbl gt5 and an infinity perfect how are they different?
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