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Old 19th January 2009, 12:42   #1
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Default Please help me configure a carputer

Hi everyone! For my Lancer, I've decided to do away with the head unit and use a carputer as the source instead.

The 2-din head unit mounting location in the dash will be used for mounting the 7" VGA touchscreen. However I have a lot of confusion pertaining to the carputer configuration itself thanks to not being so well versed with computer harware and its intricacies. Since a few fellas here have successfully built and run carputers, I hope to get some help.

The car:

Mitsubishi Lancer 2002

The reasons I want a carputer:

1. I want to be able to play lossless audio.
2. I want all my music with me. All the time. But not in bagloads of Caselogics!
3. It's just much more convenient than any standalone head unit in nearly every aspect that I can think of.

The system I plan to build on this would be:

1. Active fronts with 2 x 6" midbasses per side + 1 pair x HF drivers
2. Rear fills comprising of a stereo pair of speakers
3. Two subs
4. One 2-ch amp driving the front midbasses pairs
5. One 2-ch amp driving the front HF pair
6. One 2-ch amp driving the rear fill
7. One 2-ch amp driving the subs in bridged mode

Hence I need a multi-channel soundcard whose outputs are configurable and all sorts of features like crossover, time alignment can be used.

What I desire from the carputer:

I dont want a supercomputer. I will never use it for gaming or any other processor-intensive tasks. I will probably never use it to access the internet either. It will only be used for playing music (90%), and video (10%). So, I want something that will do this as efficiently as possible, i.e.
  • Have reasonably quick startup and shutdown times.
  • Should not hiccup with what I regard as rather trivial tasks, of playing music and movies, and GPS-based navigation.
  • Support the 1TB of desired storage capacity in form and function both
Questions -

1. Mini Itx or Micro Itx? - I suppose Micro is significantly larger than Mini. Space is not really a concern for me, and if it means a better PC, I'm game for letting it sit in my boot. However, I think it would be awesome if I could have one compact cabinet for the MoBo, RAM etc and have another one for the HDDs, or just one compact cabinet. This could perhaps be located under the seats. Hence, which MoBo? Onboard WiFi would be a big plus. And preferably with onboard graphics. I'm not gonna hook up any fancy displays - video is very low priority. But since I will be using a primitive secondary screen for the rear (in addition to the in-dash 7" touchscreen), it would be necessary to have either composite or S-Video output.

2. Hard Drives for storage? - I need about 1TB of total storage capacity for all my music. Would like the option to be able to expand this also in the future. What HDDs should I use? Will one large regular 1TB or two be fine? I want to avoid laptop drives if possible due to high cost. Was wondering if I could cradle a couple or more of the usual, large HDDs into a useless CD Changer housing.

3. Hard Drive for OS? - Would it be of any advantage to use a Solid State Drive (say about 32GB) dedicatedly for the operating system? Will it in any way improve the boot/ shutdown times?

4. How much RAM?

5. Sound Card? - Not the device I want to skimp on. Considering the ASUS Xonar DX. Looks like the audio department in this card should suffice. The pre-out though is a measly 0.2V. The amplifiers I plan to use have an input sensitivity ranging just about down to 0.2V, so I'm hoping it shouldn't be a problem.

6. Cooling? - In Bombay, temperatures are constantly in the range of 95-100 degrees F. Would a system of this sort beat the heat?

7. DVD Drive? - Slot load DVD drive with good vibration damping available? Would like to mount one on my dash if so. Seen one from Samsung for about $90. Not sure of its shock absorbing capabilities though. Anyway, transport stability of a head unit is not required. I wont be using DVDs to watch movies/ listen to music on the go. Its just for the occassion when a friend would want to listen to a disc he/ she is carrying, and to serve as an in-car CD/ DVD ripper which will mostly be done when the car is stationary.

8. Power Supply? - DC-DC or inverter?

Feedback I have received so far for the respective queries above -

1. If I can spare the space to accomodate a Micro ITX or even ITX, I could possibly go for it. I would however like to use the most compact solution possible, without compromising on the performance department.

2. Laptop HDDs are preferred owing to lower power consumption, lesser space occupied and better shock resistance. Also, lower density drives have been advised rather than high density, single 1TB drives.

3. General opinion is against SSDs and lean more towards conventional drives.

4. Longer hibernation times with 2 GB ram, but slower overall performance with 1GB. But I wonder whether "performance" is really a concern for me for playing music!

5., 6. & 7. No feedback yet.

8. DC-DC seems to be the way to go

All inputs are welcome.

Last edited by Bass&Trouble : 19th January 2009 at 12:44.
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Old 28th May 2009, 22:01   #2
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Quote:
Longer hibernation times with 2 GB ram, but slower overall performance with 1GB. But I wonder whether "performance" is really a concern for me for playing music!
I don't agree this. 2GB wont take too much hibernation time if you are not in an Atom PC and 1GB is not a low performer at all for a Car PC. Try a 2 GB kit, if you feel bad, remove 1 GB from the kit - simple! If you trust me, buy a single 2GB strip.

Quote:
Sound Card? - Not the device I want to skimp on. Considering the ASUS Xonar DX. Looks like the audio department in this card should suffice. The pre-out though is a measly 0.2V. The amplifiers I plan to use have an input sensitivity ranging just about down to 0.2V, so I'm hoping it shouldn't be a problem.
man, Why DX and why not D2X or STX?

Quote:
6. Cooling? - In Bombay, temperatures are constantly in the range of 95-100 degrees F. Would a system of this sort beat the heat?
I advice you a good quality ready-made water cooling solution, if you don't have the dark/v-cool sunfilms installed in the car. But practically, one or two low DBA Fans (preferably a HDD Fan) will work out - if you are not in a Non-AC Nano/M800 Car.

Quote:
DVD Drive? - Slot load DVD drive with good vibration damping available? Would like to mount one on my dash if so. Seen one from Samsung for about $90. Not sure of its shock absorbing capabilities though. Anyway, transport stability of a head unit is not required. I wont be using DVDs to watch movies/ listen to music on the go. Its just for the occassion when a friend would want to listen to a disc he/ she is carrying, and to serve as an in-car CD/ DVD ripper which will mostly be done when the car is stationary.
A slim laptop USB External drive is more shock proof than the regular one.

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 28th May 2009 at 22:13.
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Old 29th May 2009, 11:28   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
The reasons I want a carputer:
1. I want to be able to play lossless audio.
2. I want all my music with me. All the time.
1. Active fronts with 2 x 6" midbasses per side + 1 pair x HF drivers
2. Rear fills comprising of a stereo pair of speakers
3. Two subs
4. One 2-ch amp driving the front midbasses pairs
5. One 2-ch amp driving the front HF pair
6. One 2-ch amp driving the rear fill
7. One 2-ch amp driving the subs in bridged mode
Hence I need a multi-channel soundcard whose outputs are configurable and all sorts of features like crossover, time alignment can be used.[*]Have reasonably quick startup and shutdown times.[*]Should not hiccup with what I regard as rather trivial tasks, of playing music and movies, and GPS-based navigation.[*]Support the 1TB of desired storage capacity in form and function both

2. Hard Drives for storage? - I want to avoid laptop drives if possible due to high cost.

3. Hard Drive for OS? - Would it be of any advantage to use a Solid State Drive (say about 32GB) dedicatedly for the operating system?

6. Cooling? - In Bombay, temperatures are constantly in the range of 95-100 degrees F. Would a system of this sort beat the heat?

7. DVD Drive? - Slot load DVD drive with good vibration damping available? Would like to mount one on my dash if so. Seen one from Samsung for about $90.


5., 6. & 7. No feedback yet.
Who is going to give you feedbakc on amplfiiers? However I would still recommend using a monoblock for the subs, a 4 ch for the front and a 2 ch for the rear. The option option is to use 2 4 ch. amps one for the fronts the other for the subs and rear. fewer amps makes for a neater install.

I saw this DVD/CD combo drive used as an external drive for about Rs. 2500. It has a USB port as well as a power input and is pretty shock resistant. Atleast one install on TBHP uses this drive in the dash. Ask the Googlemeister.
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Old 29th May 2009, 13:01   #4
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@ ibm_j - I have a Lancer. Sun film is not V Kool, but Ray Barrier and reasonably effective in keeping the car cool. But I'll take your advice wrt the fans.

Do you think I could fiberglass a custom cabinet so that it won't be an out-of-place cubical/ cuboidal box sitting in the trunk?

The TA software that you are using in your car - Does it allow delay for all the channels independently? i.e. front, center, surrounds, subwoofer?

Is the external DVD drive slot-loading type?
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Old 29th May 2009, 13:41   #5
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Quote:
But I'll take your advice wrt the fans.
Yes Bass, Go for one In -> Low DBA Fan and one/two cabinet out with a HDD Fan. But if you are going for Noisy Fans, then who will build a "WATER COOLED" Car PC in Team-bhp?

Quote:
The TA software that you are using in your car - Does it allow delay for all the channels independently? i.e. front, center, surrounds, subwoofer?
Exactly. You can even change the timing bw left and right. But I advice you to tune for car centre. And I wonder, why do you need to align subwoofer timing? By Nature Low frequencies travels slow and even slow if its in boot. So in a car we are aligning high and mid frequencies to compenstate with SW delay and you will get perfect results if you have active speakers or seperate output for mid speakers & tweeters.

Quote:
Is the external DVD drive slot-loading type?
Are you going to install it in dash or inside the PC Case?
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Old 29th May 2009, 13:43   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
I don't agree this. 2GB wont take too much hibernation time if you are not in an Atom PC ...
I advice you a good quality ready-made water cooling solution, if you don't have the dark/v-cool sunfilms installed in the car. ...
You have a different philosophy towards computing power in a car. Usually the principle is "minimum MIPS for the job = minimum power drawn = minimum heat dissipation". Electronics cool, we cool, ek dum pheet! Waste not, want not.

2GB is seldom essential even in a desktop, unless the applications one uses need huge buffers. So why use huge amount of RAM when one will use only 3 apps max which use small buffers?

Performance should be a concern if all you want to do is listen to music and occasionally watch video or use GPS. Remember, that was possible even with the old PIII laptops with 256MB RAM (I have an ancient Toshiba which is still chugging along in this duty)

Water cooling? That would create more problems than solve! One fine day Ajay-bhai will find a puddle in the car and wonder who did it. It is appropriate in a games desktop, inappropriate in an environment which vibrates all the time.

Ajay, inside the cabin it will seldom exceed 35degC (~92F) when the PC is operating and the A/C is off. If it did, it will be too uncomfortable for you to sit in the car. What matters is the temperature where the PC is mounted and whether there is adequate draft to remove whatever heat is produced. All the devices are made to work normally till 50degC device temperature provided they are not in a hermetically sealed box. Even there the metal of the box is used as a heat sink extension. Ever seen an HU fail due to ambient heat? The environment inside the dash is cool enough and drafty enough that all electronics mounted there stay cool enough not to need fan cooling. And then, you would be using A/C most of the time, right?

SSD: It is better to keep the OS and apps on SSD, and all data on HDD. That way you lose data on HDD crash (replaceable from backup) but need not spend time reloading OS and reconfiguring everything. Same 'fit and forget' principle as HU: unit stays, content comes and goes. And yes, booting is way faster with SSD.

DVD drive: the slot loader you found should be good enough. Don't worry too much about mounting damping etc. The built-in damping is sufficient, unless you want to watch movies while doing cross-country or stunt-jumps. Actually, cross-country is benign - problem is when you hit potholes.
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Old 29th May 2009, 13:43   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_j
And I wonder, why do you need to align subwoofer timing? By Nature Low frequencies travels slow and even slow if its in boot.
Jeniffer, you ask the question and answer it yourself
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Old 29th May 2009, 13:53   #8
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You have a different philosophy towards computing power in a car. Usually the principle is "minimum MIPS for the job = minimum power drawn = minimum heat dissipation". Electronics cool, we cool, ek dum pheet! Waste not, want not.

2GB is seldom essential even in a desktop, unless the applications one uses need huge buffers. So why use huge amount of RAM when one will use only 3 apps max which use small buffers?

Performance should be a concern if all you want to do is listen to music and occasionally watch video or use GPS. Remember, that was possible even with the old PIII laptops with 256MB RAM (I have an ancient Toshiba which is still chugging along in this duty)
I agree with you, but If you follow my threads you will understand I first started my Car PC with a 1 GB RAM and now I am happy with 2GB Ram with Zero Virtual memory. But I too don't recommend you 2GB if you are in

1. ATOM Based Car PC
2. If you wont use VST Based Tuners
3. If you are living with only Centrafuse/Roadrunner
4. If you wont play AVC HD Movies/Songs in the car
5. If your kids wont play crysis kind of games from the back seat (?)

But believe me or not, My PC needs more than 1GB only when I am running when my Audiomulch. And again never go for Dual Channel 2GB, Better stay with a single channel 1GB.

Quote:
Water cooling? That would create more problems than solve! One fine day Ajay-bhai will find a puddle in the car and wonder who did it. It is appropriate in a games desktop, inappropriate in an environment which vibrates all the time.
Yes, its risk, but worth for a show-off(?). And people did it already and happy with the setup: MP3Car.com - View Single Post - Cheap liquid cooling

Believe me even I have too tried, but the kit I have is not efficient(coolermaster R80) and I have reached only 10% low in temp, so I dropped the idea. You may need to buy a very efficient sealed ready-made cooling kit(not a budget water cooler) as you cant run a DIY water cooling in the car. Why I advise it to LBM is- If not LBM then who will build a "WATER COOLED" Car PC in Team-bhp?

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 29th May 2009 at 14:12.
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Old 29th May 2009, 14:19   #9
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I guess you have a good budget. In which case you can consider some thing like this with the NVIDIA ION Platform with a cute little enclosure which will mean that you can have this anywhere you want to even inside the dash.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Who is going to give you feedbakc on amplfiiers? However I would still recommend using a monoblock for the subs, a 4 ch for the front and a 2 ch for the rear. The option option is to use 2 4 ch. amps one for the fronts the other for the subs and rear. fewer amps makes for a neater install.
Agree with Navin. Why do you want to use 4 separate amps ? Unless you have these lying around & dont want to waste them.
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Old 29th May 2009, 14:21   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer
Yes Bass, Go for one In -> Low DBA Fan and one/two cabinet out with a HDD Fan. But if you are going for Noisy Fans, then who will build a "WATER COOLED" Car PC in Team-bhp?
Fan Noise is not a big concern for me since I plan to mount the cabinet in the trunk of my car. I assume that if I use the most silent of fans, the whirring should not be heard in the cabin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer
Exactly. You can even change the timing bw left and right. But I advice you to tune for car centre.
??

Aren't all cars auto-tuned for car centre, on account of speakers being placed symmetrically along longitudinal axis? Idea is to tune for a particular seating position, like the hugely offset front positions, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer
And I wonder, why do you need to align subwoofer timing? By Nature Low frequencies travels slow and even slow if its in boot. So in a car we are aligning high and mid frequencies to compenstate with SW delay and you will get perfect results if you have active speakers or seperate output for mid speakers & tweeters.
I agree. But there are situations where the subwoofer ends up closer than one or more speakers (common in hatches), and / or when there is an in-dash or such other front-mount subwoofer (like a rear engine car).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer
Are you going to install it in dash or inside the PC Case?
I would ideally like to build a cabinet that can be tucked away into one of the cubby holes in the side of the trunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Water cooling? That would create more problems than solve! One fine day Ajay-bhai will find a puddle in the car and wonder who did it. It is appropriate in a games desktop, inappropriate in an environment which vibrates all the time.
I have no aspirations to become 'the first person on team bhp to have a water-cooled carputer'. I'll let someone else take that title. The carputer will only be used for storing and playing 90% music and 10% video mix. I would like to have GPS and the OBD functions also, if possible. Both of which I dont think should be very processor-intensive.

Quote:
SSD: It is better to keep the OS and apps on SSD, and all data on HDD. That way you lose data on HDD crash (replaceable from backup) but need not spend time reloading OS and reconfiguring everything.
Recommended SSD capacity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
DVD drive: the slot loader you found should be good enough. Don't worry too much about mounting damping etc. The built-in damping is sufficient, unless you want to watch movies while doing cross-country or stunt-jumps.
I will never use the optical drive while driving. So, this seems fine.


I need a composite video out for a secondary roof-mount screen. Which motherboard will do this? i.e. composite or S-Video out? And ibm_j's dual display setup is also very cool. Would like to get that if possible.

Last edited by Bass&Trouble : 29th May 2009 at 14:24.
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Old 29th May 2009, 15:25   #11
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if you have waited for so long, buy NOTHING but the ION platform. it's a one stop solution for all your needs.
we will KMD one of the first few examples (provided they are within reasonable limits) and add a USB external sound card to it. that's it. you're good to go!
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Old 29th May 2009, 15:50   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
... 5. If your kids wont play crysis kind of games from the back seat (?)
You already have kids playing such games? You looked kinda young in the pic you posted. JJ!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
... Believe me even I have too tried, but the kit I have is not efficient ...
B&T has bovine affinity, don't try to make bakra out of him. Ditto LBM (black acqua bovines in his case)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
Fan Noise is not a big concern
...
Recommended SSD capacity?
...
I need a composite video out for a secondary roof-mount screen. Which motherboard will do this? i.e. composite or S-Video out? And ibm_j's dual display setup is also very cool. Would like to get that if possible.
Not the noise of the fan, but the reliability - if it fails, you get toast!

8G should be enough for the OS and apps, if not 4G.

If you search carefully for the mobo, you will get both in the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
if you have waited for so long, buy NOTHING but the ION platform. ...
That's like saying: if you haven't eaten till not, wait till dinner tomorrow.

Last edited by Technocrat : 29th May 2009 at 16:10.
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Old 29th May 2009, 15:52   #13
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Originally Posted by esteem_lover View Post
I guess you have a good budget. In which case you can consider some thing like this with the NVIDIA ION Platform with a cute little enclosure which will mean that you can have this anywhere you want to even inside the dash
That is a killer thing. Cute too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
Recommended SSD capacity?
32GB will keep core OS and apps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
if you have waited for so long, buy NOTHING but the ION platform. it's a one stop solution for all your needs.
"I'm going to have some fun
Can someone help me? no boomy noises?
gotta, gonna ICE it with a CAR PC
No simple system - wanna really butch it
Got my speakers for nothing and my amps for free

We gonna install Carbon Ilusions
Custom sub-woofer enclo-sures
We gonna move lotsa lotsa air
can everyone help me please!

No more udders, got myself a lance-r
gotcha, gonna ICE it cause I'm B&T
No simple system - wanna really butch it
Speakers for nothin and my amps for free
Speakers for nothin and my amps for free"

- sung to the tune of "Money for Nothing"
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Old 29th May 2009, 16:31   #14
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You already have kids playing such games? You looked kinda young in the pic you posted. JJ!
No bhai, I am the one who is in the back seat(!)

Quote:
don't try to make bakra out of him.
I still hope, Show-off is not a bad thing at all. But I know LBM wont be my culprit.

Quote:
I agree. But there are situations where the subwoofer ends up closer than one or more speakers (common in hatches), and / or when there is an in-dash or such other front-mount subwoofer (like a rear engine car)
.

Exactly. Then you may need to play with the subwoofer delay, but its not easy to compensate the Phase problems with low frequencies if you are using the Amp Crossover's LPF Filter.

Quote:
Aren't all cars auto-tuned for car centre, on account of speakers being placed symmetrically along longitudinal axis? Idea is to tune for a particular seating position, like the hugely offset front positions, right?
Yes, Unless you are a driver for a VIP.

Quote:
I assume that if I use the most silent of fans, the whirring should not be heard in the cabin.
Yes, Fan Noise wont be a big problem with Low DBA Fans. But again if not LBM, then when we will see a *** Car PC in team-bhp??

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 29th May 2009 at 16:34.
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Old 29th May 2009, 16:59   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover View Post
I guess you have a good budget. In which case you can consider some thing like this with the NVIDIA ION Platform with a cute little enclosure which will mean that you can have this anywhere you want to even inside the dash.
This one looks a killer, No hassles. Is it already available? any idea on how much this would cost?


EDIT:
Searching for Ion, i stumbled upon this. For 299$ i think this one is cool too.

Acer AspireRevo review

This one's already out - Buy Acer Aspire Revo R3600 Ultra Small Form Factor PC Atom (N270) 1.6GHz 2048MB 160GB WLAN Vista Home Premium (GeForce 9400) Revo Multimedia Keyboard and Optical Mouse 92.G1EYZ.UFP 244.98 - Oyyy.co.uk

Last edited by sathee46 : 29th May 2009 at 17:18.
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