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Old 26th February 2009, 21:55   #16
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It's true. A lot of amps have trouble accepting anything more than 4V-5V. Anything above their limit will yield a result similar to setting the gains too high; clipping!
thats news for me. how do people cope with the eclipse 7200MKII's 8V pre-outs? thank god i didnt buy the 7200MKII!!


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Nope, haven't installed a x991/x9006U. It's been on my list of HUs to use for a while now. One major reason I like the HU: it plays WAVs straight off the USB!!! Another plus: uses Wolfson DACs instead of the now de rigueur Burr Brown. So far, we have liked what we've heard from Wolfson and this should be no exception.
my ipod mini 2nd gen has wolfson dacs too, if im not wrong! yay!! anyways, . wanted to ask where you can see which DAC is present in which ipod????
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Having used some of Kenwood's high end units, we can safely say they have a very vocal centric sound, which is not sexed up at all. Light natural bass, and a bent towards detail in the mids and highs
hmmm. i read something like this. does anyone on team bhp own a kdc-x991???
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Old 26th February 2009, 21:56   #17
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Gunbir jee, what is the crack for it.
Lowering gains?
If the lowest your gains go is 4V, what will you lower it to further? The only way is to mentally set a lower limit on the HU. Say your HU has a max vol till 62 and starts clipping probably around 56. Now if the HU outputs 6V at 55 and 4V at 50, then set your amps gains to match the HU at 4V (vol level 50).

Then any time one runs the HU over 50 on reference level recordings, there are chances of clipping. So the only thing one can do is make a mental note not to cross 50 unless the materials recording level is really low.

Last edited by gunbir : 26th February 2009 at 22:00.
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Old 26th February 2009, 22:06   #18
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I suppose the 786 is the old model. they have the 886usb out and so the 786usb should be available for cheap.

Eclipse I think would be an overkill for him as its an advanced unit. But depends on the buyer ultimately.
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Old 26th February 2009, 22:16   #19
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Originally Posted by gunbir View Post
If the lowest your gains go is 4V, what will you lower it to further? The only way is to mentally set a lower limit on the HU. Say your HU has a max vol till 62 and starts clipping probably around 56. Now if the HU outputs 6V at 55 and 4V at 50, then set your amps gains to match the HU at 4V (vol level 50).

Then any time one runs the HU over 50 on reference level recordings, there are chances of clipping. So the only thing one can do is make a mental note not to cross 50 unless the materials recording level is really low.
Well, if am not wrong get a powerful amp, set the gain on the amp to the limit between half and 3/4. And never go beyond half to 3/4 volume range of the headunit. I think that should work..what say Gunbir paaji? ?

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Frankmehta: thats news for me. how do people cope with the eclipse 7200MKII's 8V pre-outs? thank god i didnt buy the 7200MKII!!
I told you so Input sensivity is something which most of us ignore and later face problems like amp clipping.
To get the 7200mkII get the most high end amps, Genesis, Tru, Steg, Zapco, and others i guess they all can take input upto 8V. Plus with this the true potential of both the Amp and 7200MkII would reveal. Everything is about matching the components in a right manner. Obviously one cant have full potential of high end amps from the basic head unit or vice versa. Also, like we all know its not just about the spec tech of the head unit that matters, its also the real world, the car acoustic coupled with great drivers and amp. What say Gunbir?

Gunbir paaji have got a chance to audition the 9887 with clarion may be not this model, anyother? Which one has a smoother sound production with softer tight clean bass?

Last edited by Invinsible : 26th February 2009 at 22:31.
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Old 26th February 2009, 22:56   #20
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Here's one exmaple of what I said. Different input sensitivity is something which would be rarely found in a lot of brand accept for the high end amps.
Here's one of the example from the Zapco Competition series Amplifier. This one comes with shuffle switch between 1-4volt or 4-16volt operation. Not something one can find in many brands. Also the Damping factor is good quite high for excellent speaker control.

Stereo, 4 ohms: 4x100 Watts
Stereo, 2 ohms: 4x150 Watts
Bridged, 4 ohms: 2x300 Watts
T.H.D. + Noise: <0.025%
Frequency Response: 20Hz - 20kHz; +0 dB/-0.23 dB
S/N Ratio: >100dB
Transient Distortion: <0.025%
Slew Rate: >40V/uS
Damping Factor: >1000
Input Sensitivity: 1-4 Volts or 4-16 Volts
Dimensions: 19.5"L x 8.75"W x 2.375"H
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Old 26th February 2009, 22:56   #21
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uh oh! i will have to get a steg, then! :-P

EDIT: My ground zero has a voltage input rated @ 6V. thats great!

Last edited by frankmehta : 26th February 2009 at 22:57.
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Old 26th February 2009, 23:01   #22
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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
my ipod mini 2nd gen has wolfson dacs too, if im not wrong! yay!! anyways, . wanted to ask where you can see which DAC is present in which ipod????
PortalPlayer < Main < TWiki

I run this OS on my iPod.
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Old 26th February 2009, 23:14   #23
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So that means if i get the 7200 ( not that i am getting it currently) , i will have to lower the gains.
Can someone please help me find input rating for JBL 14001 so i can accordingly choose a HU.
Not able to find it anywhere.

Last edited by abhinav.gupta88 : 26th February 2009 at 23:17.
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Old 26th February 2009, 23:41   #24
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Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
So that means if i get the 7200 ( not that i am getting it currently) , i will have to lower the gains.
Can someone please help me find input rating for JBL 14001 so i can accordingly choose a HU.
Not able to find it anywhere.
Well here you go, sure this will help you, it says 4.7V max.

1200 watts RMS x 1 channel at 4 ohms
1500 watts RMS x 1 channel at 2 ohms & 14.4V supply
Max Power: 1500 watts at 4 ohms
DBO (Dynamic Bass Optimization)
Low Pass Filter Frequency control
12dB Octave Low pass filter variable 32Hz-320Hz
Maximum Input Signal: 4.7V
Maximum Sensitivity: 220mV
Output Regulation: .098 dB at 4 ohms
Signal-to-Noise (dBA) 104dBA (reference rated power into 4 ohms)
THD 0.04% (rated power at 4 ohms)
Frequency Response 20Hz - 330Hz (-3dB)
Wired Bass controller included
Dimensions L x W x H) 18-9/16" x 10-3/8" x 2-1/8"


You can also go on this link download the owner's manual on the page at bottom left, and then have a closer look amp guide, it has a limit upto 6V
JBL Car & Marine Audio
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Old 26th February 2009, 23:44   #25
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Anyways coming back to the topic are there any user's who have used or are using the kenwood who have also tried Alpine 9887 or the other way round? Which one the two has better vocal, highs or tonal quality?
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Old 26th February 2009, 23:45   #26
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So if i were to run the eclipse 7200 which has 8v pre out, i will have to reduce the gains if i want to play it at full volume too?
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Old 27th February 2009, 00:17   #27
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Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
So if i were to run the eclipse 7200 which has 8v pre out, i will have to reduce the gains if i want to play it at full volume too?
Unfortunately yes, i am afraid the amp might start clipping in no time. 7200 is a pure SQ headunit. Well, you gain some you lose some. Best would be to keep your gains upto 3/4 max level, go for a little more powerful which even if you keep the volume at 3/4 will satisfy you what you were expecting.

But to be little practical at the cost of the extra money to get the powerful amp, why not get a headunit which matches the amp perfectly. As I said earlier it's not just about great head unit or amp or speakers its about matching them correctly.
Am sure the experts here will have more to add on to this.

Guys can you'll give your input score from 1-10 for the headunits in
1. Sound Quality:
2. Features :
3. Ease of use :
4. Value For money :
5. Looks :
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Old 27th February 2009, 00:20   #28
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Well, if am not wrong get a powerful amp, set the gain on the amp to the limit between half and 3/4. And never go beyond half to 3/4 volume range of the headunit. I think that should work..what say Gunbir paaji? ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
So if i were to run the eclipse 7200 which has 8v pre out, i will have to reduce the gains if i want to play it at full volume too?
Guys, lets clear this up again. The gain knob is a "sensitivity" setting. If your HU has a very weak preout, you will need to set the gain higher (more sensitive). If your HU has a strong preout your gains will have to be lowered (less sensitive). In either situation, it is important to MATCH the amp to the HU's output. The Oscilloscope or DMM methods prove near accurate and help set the gains properly. Of course, a trained set of ears can also do this without the above but at best it may still be +/- 10% of the target.

Another thing we must realise is that the potentiometers (gain knobs) used in most amps (even some high end ones) are NOT linear. That means that usually when we see a gain knob and by common sense, set it at 1/4th or 1/3rd, it may still be too high. Why? because the gain knob is literally only functioning for the first 1/3 or 1/4th of its travel. If it reaches its max setting at 1/3rd (instead of all the way) and you leave it at that, it may be in fact set too high.

Some manufacturers may do this intentionally cuz consumers say "Oh look at my amp, my gains are turned way down low and it still kicks the subs". This is precisely why setting the gains by DMM is the least acceptable method. Its easier to focus on getting a target voltage on the DMM, wherever that may be on the potentiometers scale. We must also realise that manufacturers use cheap pots (potentiometers) and each peice may measure differently. So if you had the two amps of the same model, setting the gain at the exact same place visually may still output different power levels from each amp. Via the DMM method, one would concentrate on getting the exact voltage, whatever the setting on the pot.

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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
To get the 7200mkII get the most high end amps, Genesis, Tru, Steg, Zapco, and others i guess they all can take input upto 8V. Plus with this the true potential of both the Amp and 7200MkII would reveal. Everything is about matching the components in a right manner. Obviously one cant have full potential of high end amps from the basic head unit or vice versa. Also, like we all know its not just about the spec tech of the head unit that matters, its also the real world, the car acoustic coupled with great drivers and amp. What say Gunbir?
Very true. Everything has a sonic signature. One of the most important things one can learn in this hobby is to pair things that work well together. A very bright, dynamic speaker (say Focal) and a warm amp (say Audison) made a great combination as they would work well of each others strengths and weaknesses. Again, this combination works but not everyone. We all have our own individual tastes that are ever so different in the smallest ways. Add to that the variables of the in car environment and you have the answer to why most people in this hobby change stuff so often. They simply play the trial and error game till they end up with a good mix that works for them.

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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Gunbir paaji have got a chance to audition the 9887 with clarion may be not this model, anyother? Which one has a smoother sound production with softer tight clean bass?
The 9887 wouldnt exactly have what I would call "natural" bass. It is a bit accentuated, but many people like that and it can work for the specific car environment too. If I had to take a leap of faith, I would bet the Clarion (assuming its a 7xx series or above) would have a more natural presentation over the 9887.

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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Here's one of the example from the Zapco Competition series Amplifier. This one comes with shuffle switch between 1-4volt or 4-16volt operation. Not something one can find in many brands. Also the Damping factor is good quite high for excellent speaker control.
Zapco uses that switch because their Symbilink (balanced line transmission) will deliver high voltage into the amp. That is normally when you would switch it to the high voltage setting. Others manufacturers also had similar balanced line transmission on their high end amps.

Damping factor is another often abused spec. Research it more and you will learn why.

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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Anyways coming back to the topic are there any user's who have used or are using the kenwood who have also tried Alpine 9887 or the other way round? Which one the two has better vocal, highs or tonal quality?
Points for overall tonality balance will have to go to Kenwood... I found the 9887 to have very strong midrange (something my system didn't need at all) and lack in the the top end a bit. If its overall tonality you seek the Clarion or the Kenwood would serve you well.

Cheers!

Last edited by gunbir : 27th February 2009 at 00:27.
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Old 27th February 2009, 00:42   #29
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And what if i put two monos (14001 with 6v input )and then run off a 7200?
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Old 27th February 2009, 01:26   #30
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Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
And what if i put two monos (14001 with 6v input )and then run off a 7200?
Hey Solution to your problem is only one, get a AudioControl Matrix line driver, you can have variable Volt setting with this and than crank up your amp. Awesome stuff.
You may also try the Epicenter plus, sure you wouldn't need two monos after this. Perfect for bass headed people.

Special Processors

GUNBIR: How much would be this Clarion cost here in India? Any Idea. My heart is leaning towards Pioneer don't know why somehow, and the mind says to go for either for Clarion or Kenwood. Looks like gonna be a roller coaster ride through heart and mind

Last edited by Invinsible : 27th February 2009 at 01:31.
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