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Old 27th February 2009, 11:07   #1
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Default The Lossless vs Lossy format thread.

What about ripping it Windows Media Audio loesless format. It seems it uses 206 to 411MB per CD 470 to 940kbps.. they say its Mathematically loseless.

Can this format be played Mp3/wma/cd head unit?
Can someone elaborate on this ?

I have been ripping my Audio CDS at 320kbps bitrate MP3 which keeps the track close to the CD quality. Always noticed onething that highs are no more crystal clear compared to the Audio CDs.
When I compared the same track, one in MP3 and one WAV file format on Sound forge, the graph showed the high peaks seen in WAV file graph had dropped a bit in MP3 320kbps. Thanks to the compression. I guess any sought of Compression is not good and is somewhere a compromise.

Last edited by Invinsible : 27th February 2009 at 11:10.
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Old 27th February 2009, 11:21   #2
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
What about ripping it Windows Media Audio loesless format. It seems it uses 206 to 411MB per CD 470 to 940kbps.. they say its Mathematically loseless.

Can this format be played Mp3/wma/cd head unit?
Can someone elaborate on this ?

I have been ripping my Audio CDS at 320kbps bitrate MP3 which keeps the track close to the CD quality. Always noticed onething that highs are no more crystal clear compared to the Audio CDs.
When I compared the same track, one in MP3 and one WAV file format on Sound forge, the graph showed the high peaks seen in WAV file graph had dropped a bit in MP3 320kbps. Thanks to the compression. I guess any sought of Compression is not good and is somewhere a compromise.
Well if you take a 40mb WAV track and 10mb 320k track, 75% is still missing. And the difference is very audible. Compressed files sound edgy and bright. Bass too is fuzzy and lacks definition.

I hated the SQ of my iPod until I heard WAVs on it. Then I actually dumped my entire 320 collection and ripped most of my CDs into WAV. With a 120gb iPod you can still store around 180 albums in WAV. Thats a lot of lossless music to have at your disposal in the car.

Currently there are no HUs (that I know of) that play WMA/AAC/FLAC or any of the Lossless formats. But if you have AAC lossless on your iPod, it will play on your HU through the ipod interface. I tried it, but still preferred WAV.

Last edited by gunbir : 27th February 2009 at 11:24.
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Old 27th February 2009, 12:06   #3
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GUNBIR:
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Currently there are no HUs (that I know of) that play WMA/AAC/FLAC or any of the Lossless formats. But if you have AAC lossless on your iPod, it will play on your HU through the ipod interface. I tried it, but still preferred WAV.
Well i din't quite get you, I suppose almost all head unit can play standard WMA format files but what am not sure of is whether they can play WMA loseloss format. has anyone tried this.

No doubt WAV format is the one to have. Unless someone comes up with something better than WAV. When I listen to Sting on WAV format is like day and night difference compared to the MP3, or even for that matter Pink Floyd.
That's one of the reason I carry a case logic along with me for all my best collection which is a copy from Original CD stored at home.
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Old 27th February 2009, 12:21   #4
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Well i din't quite get you, I suppose almost all head unit can play standard WMA format files but what am not sure of is whether they can play WMA loseloss format. has anyone tried this.
Like I said before, there are no HUs currently available that play WMA Lossless or any of the other Lossless formats. Most of the current entry-mid level HUs will play MP3, AAC, and WMA upto 320K VBR level.

Last edited by gunbir : 27th February 2009 at 12:22.
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Old 27th February 2009, 17:06   #5
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Originally Posted by gunbir View Post
Well if you take a 40mb WAV track and 10mb 320k track, 75% is still missing. And the difference is very audible. Compressed files sound edgy and bright. Bass too is fuzzy and lacks definition.

I hated the SQ of my iPod until I heard WAVs on it.
.
x2 to that and if you hear the new generation XRCD's you will want to throw your CD collection out of the window.
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Old 27th February 2009, 17:28   #6
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What about ripping it Windows Media Audio loesless format. It seems it uses 206 to 411MB per CD 470 to 940kbps.. they say its Mathematically loseless.
whatever 'magic' windows media player claims it can do, is all a farce. In all, its a shoddy effort by Microsoft to make an all-in-one media player that can do everything. It's a jack of all trades and definitely not a master of ripping tracks to lossless WMA. i have used windows media player for 2 years, when there was no internet, to rip tracks from my audio cds. all those files have been deleted by me recently and I have decided to rebuild my collection, because windows media player made a mess out of ripping them. Also, please never try to burn an audio cd from WMP from mp3's and wma's. its quite a bad product and degrades already degraded mp3 files. all in all, dump wmp and adopt the product spoken off by me , later in this thread.


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Originally Posted by gunbir View Post
Well if you take a 40mb WAV track and 10mb 320k track, 75% is still missing. And the difference is very audible. Compressed files sound edgy and bright. Bass too is fuzzy and lacks definition.
absoultely, gunbir paaji. especially now, with slightly higher end equipment, i can distinguish the nuances between lossy and lossless! quite a clear difference.

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I hated the SQ of my iPod until I heard WAVs on it. Then I actually dumped my entire 320 collection and ripped most of my CDs into WAV. With a 120gb iPod you can still store around 180 albums in WAV. Thats a lot of lossless music to have at your disposal in the car.
i download my music as only FLAC files now. its a brilliant format and claims to be almost identical to the cd it has been ripped from, hence the mammoth size. But thanks to fast always on broadband, the size doesnt seem a deterrent anymore.. its a great way to get the real Mc Coy, well, almost! I convert these files to ALAC using the most brilliant software in the world, dBPoweramp. Its the most versatile audio conversion and ripping software, and a must have for everyone who has a lot of music stored on the PC/Laptop and listen to it in the car. The ALAC's are then transferred to the iPod using Itunes (which has been behaving well, of late)
I use this iPod to play the ALAC's (apple lossless audio codec) through the KCE-422i cable that goes into my Alpine 9887 (which charges and controls the ipod seamlessly). Its a brilliant thing that the Wolfson DAC plays these really well, and there is a difference between the actual product and that played from the iPod, but we are beggars, and we cant be choosers, until there comes a head unit that plays lossless music out of the box (i predict that sometime soon)

Quote:
Currently there are no HUs (that I know of) that play WMA/AAC/FLAC or any of the Lossless formats. But if you have AAC lossless on your iPod, it will play on your HU through the ipod interface. I tried it, but still preferred WAV.
Does converting from FLAC to WAV yield better results than converting from FLAC to ALAC?????

Quote:
Well i din't quite get you, I suppose almost all head unit can play standard WMA format files but what am not sure of is whether they can play WMA loseloss format. has anyone tried this.
i have a few lossless WMA's still, and my 9887 rejects them as PROTECTED. even my Pioneer 7950UB hated these, and didnt even list them as being present on the USB drive! WMA lossless is a goner. I think one shouldn't dabble with it anymore.
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No doubt WAV format is the one to have. Unless someone comes up with something better than WAV. When I listen to Sting on WAV format is like day and night difference compared to the MP3, or even for that matter Pink Floyd.
you said it there :-)

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That's one of the reason I carry a case logic along with me for all my best collection which is a copy from Original CD stored at home.
same here, but the only difference here is that its a moser baer CD ka dabba.


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x2 to that and if you hear the new generation XRCD's you will want to throw your CD collection out of the window.
Hmmm, wonder when it will become a universal format (which i doubt)

Last edited by frankmehta : 27th February 2009 at 17:29.
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Old 27th February 2009, 17:46   #7
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I remember reading something about PhatBox or something that plays FLACs - in car. anyone got an idea what it is, or its worth it? There were a couple of links in FLAC's sourceforge page.
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Old 27th February 2009, 17:51   #8
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just saw the PhatNoise site. they have the x991 in the background! man, im getting tempted here!!!!
and phatbox is discontinued.

Last edited by frankmehta : 27th February 2009 at 17:52.
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Old 27th February 2009, 17:58   #9
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All Pioneers which i tried played wav without a problem through USB. Some of the kenwood also play WAV through USB. I tired playing WMA lossless on Pio and kenny and they both said NA File.

I usually RIP CD's in WMA VBR / CBR (the highest possible) and found it better sounding than MP3.

P.S. Until and unless i am enjoying music and its not saturating my ears it really doesn't bother me whether its 128Kbs MP3 or ACD.

Similar thread discussed earlier in detailed
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...s-mp3-etc.html

Last edited by abhibh : 27th February 2009 at 17:59.
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Old 27th February 2009, 17:59   #10
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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post

Does converting from FLAC to WAV yield better results than converting from FLAC to ALAC?????
I normal convert them to WAV from FLAC to play them in my IPOD and I like the results. Very close to the original but not perfect. And it is very much better than a MP3.
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Old 1st March 2009, 21:46   #11
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O Well guys are we talking of times when we copy music which is not usually permitted? no ways original is original.
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Old 2nd March 2009, 01:22   #12
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This topic is something that usually is difficult to resolve. It usually depends on your ears and how keen/sensitive you are.

The best way is, as usual, to find out for yourself. If you have a computer, you can use foobar2000 audio player to do a blind ABX test and find out for yourself. Ensure you have a lossless wav file, a 320 kbps MP3 and see if you can find a difference. Use the best equipment you have for this.

If you want to find out in your car, you would need a friend who can switch different tracks without telling you what the encoding is. Do the listening test 10 times to ensure that the results are not random.

What I have ended up doing is the following:
1. All my old hindi songs are at 160-192kbps, old being till 1990.
2. Songs beyond that year, both Hindi and Tamil are ripped at 320kbps. My ears cannot distinguish between 320kbps and lossless audio on any indian recording.
3. All my english songs are lossless. I have noticed that Audio CDs which are mastered in UK/Europe are way better than the ones mastered in US (this is widely known) In some of the newer CDs, I can't find A/B between 320 and lossless. But I stick with my thumb rules because it makes ripping easy.

Does anyone know a website which sells lossless audio? It has been years since I used an actual CD.
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Old 2nd March 2009, 02:48   #13
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Originally Posted by d.kiran View Post
Does anyone know a website which sells lossless audio? It has been years since I used an actual CD.
HDtracks high resolution audiophile music downloads would be one such site...
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Old 2nd March 2009, 08:45   #14
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Originally Posted by reveal_da_zeal View Post
O Well guys are we talking of times when we copy music which is not usually permitted? no ways original is original.

If you own original CDs, its legal and ethical to copy those to iPod / USB etc.

You can do that as long as these copies are not shared.
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Old 3rd March 2009, 17:56   #15
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OK, so now that you have a compressed version and a version that isn't compressed, lok carefully at the graphs to determine the frequency at which the high-frequency attenuation begins. Then, download Audacity or some other editing program and implement a 24dB/octave high pass filter on the track at that frequency, save the file, burn it to a CD and go listen to only the high frequencies you're missing in your car.

You'll quickly discover that all of that terrible compression doesn't amount to much when you use your ears rathern than your eyes. MPS at 256k is fine.
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