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Old 17th March 2009, 13:00   #61
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Originally Posted by chiragh_bir View Post
yaar you must have seen the swift which was present at expo ..
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Originally Posted by abhibh View Post
Oh you mean the JBL twins hehe.
Hey Chiragh,

I am sorry you felt that the bass in the JBL swift at Chandigarh was inadequate. However I have heard those cars and was involved in the installation and I am pretty sure it was a bad demonstration.

Because normally those cars have too much bass. Anyways to each his own. Good luck with your quest and do post the listening results once it is in your car.
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Old 17th March 2009, 13:06   #62
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Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
What model no. were they greenhorn?
Combo 1
Polk PA400.1 + IDQ V2D2
Combo 2
Alpine MRD-M501 + GZTW 30T

Again, I point out that this was not a fair comparison in the first place, and should not be taken as indicative of either setup

Last edited by greenhorn : 17th March 2009 at 13:07.
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Old 17th March 2009, 13:08   #63
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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Because normally those cars have too much bass.
One can lower or raise the subwoofer level from the HU. I remember listening the car too and while I was distracted by the very unJBL-like recessed treble I found the bass to be just adequate. I never got to give it an extended listen though.

Maybe the hatch was not closed. Many people who herd it at the Mumbai show with the hatch open did complain of the lack of bass.
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Old 17th March 2009, 13:54   #64
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Originally Posted by arpandiv View Post
Hydra, my question is not brand specific, but i am quoting the model in question because it fits the question i am about to ask.
How will a 1000RMS sub sound if you supply 300W to it ? I thought that if the sub is 1000w capable the amp must be atleast 600W capable (what i mean is 300W is just 30% of the rating ? )
@arpan, I will not be able to answer this very technically, which I'm sure the other gurus will be able to. But I'll take a stab at it from the intended end-result POV -- how a sub is used in an actual install and how it 'makes music' with (at least) a pair of component speakers. After all, the basic idea of combining the various components of a music system (HU, Amp/s, components, sub/s, wires, etc.) is to create music that we enjoy listening to.

I specifically mentioned 300w to 350w RMS with the IDMaxV3, as I have listened to an install where an IDMax (wired at 4ohms) in a sealed box was being fed 300w RMS from a TRU S500 mono. The sub was being used with a pair of ID XS65s (getting 65wRMS per channel from a TRU S44). The setup was an ad-hoc test setup, and so was not being tuned as an SPL application, and neither was it tuned right then to be an out-and-out SQ-focused install either. The components & sub were connected, the filters were set in the amps and the music was played. Before tuning, the sub went a LOT louder (than I would have ever listened to it) without any hint of clipping or distortion. Even at that level of loudness, the sub was playing quite musically, exactly as I would have wanted a sub to (if I would have listened to music at those volumes). The sub absolutely drowned the components out before the gains were properly set and things were balanced out. The way I listen to my music, the sub-level was set at 10 in the HU (an Alpine 9887) and at the max level of 15, the sub was playing a bit louder than I would like. At sub-level 10, the overall system was making music that I really liked and music which was more enjoyable than my current setup. If I had the money, I'd have bought the sub and the amp in a blink.

Now going back to generalities, the max rating of 1000w RMS is the maximum the sub can take without reaching its thermal limits. And as you know, for an everyday music listening session you don't take any sub even close to its limits (even if you listen to music a bit loud). This sub does not really need 600w RMS to start playing bass that is fast and musical to give the typical listener the enjoyment of listening to music.

That said, feeding 600w RMS to this sub will make it play a bit faster and the bass will indeed be a bit more dynamic and musical. And of course it will play louder. BUT, to use a % for the purpose of illustration, feeding 300 to 350w RMS to this sub will give you about 80-85% of the enjoyment you get when you feed this sub 600w RMS.

So again, from the end-user POV, 300 to 350w RMS will be enough for this sub to produce bass that will give the end-user a very enjoyable experience.

Though your question was not about this particular sub, I've been talking about the sub referred to in my original post. IMHO this way of choosing a sub (based on available/planned amplification power) holds true regardless of the brand of the equipment.

Side note: From my limited experience, I've found that matching equipment by looking at the numbers is only half the picture. How good a speaker can sound with a particular amp does not have a lot to do with the rating of the speaker or the amp. Some matches are made in heaven (regardless of the ratings). Some matches are downright headache-inducing, though they may confirm to ratings. The problem is, we may not be able to try all possible combinations before we buy. We can only learn as we listen to more and more combinations. Only, the more we listen, the more we feel the need to change/upgrade our equipment :(

I don't know how this turned out to be such a long post. My apologies for being long-winded.
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Old 17th March 2009, 14:08   #65
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wow hydra what a great reply i am loving it,one of the best answer for a qus i have ever come across

O.T need to take some classes FROM you he he

Last edited by karankapoor : 17th March 2009 at 14:12.
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Old 17th March 2009, 14:25   #66
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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Hey Chiragh,

I am sorry you felt that the bass in the JBL swift at Chandigarh was inadequate. However I have heard those cars and was involved in the installation and I am pretty sure it was a bad demonstration.

Because normally those cars have too much bass. Anyways to each his own. Good luck with your quest and do post the listening results once it is in your car.
Sam I was not present at the AutoMall, but yes i did get a few calls from friends that there was no thump in the car. Even i was amazed.

Maybe sub level was down.
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Old 17th March 2009, 14:40   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Hey Chiragh,

I am sorry you felt that the bass in the JBL swift at Chandigarh was inadequate. However I have heard those cars and was involved in the installation and I am pretty sure it was a bad demonstration.

Because normally those cars have too much bass. Anyways to each his own. Good luck with your quest and do post the listening results once it is in your car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhibh View Post
Sam I was not present at the AutoMall, but yes i did get a few calls from friends that there was no thump in the car. Even i was amazed.

Maybe sub level was down.
+1 to that!

I had gone to the Automall and upon seeing one of the Evil Twins, the first thing that came to my mind was Maybe Sam is here too!

But, yes there was no thump from the car, i barely stood there for a few seconds and moved away disappointed.

Sorry for going off-topic.

Regards,
Jaspreet Singh
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Old 17th March 2009, 14:50   #68
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
listened to a Polk mono + ported ID sub combo, and an Alpine mono + Sealed GZ sub combo.

(yes, those are very unlikely , but we mad mallus like to mix and match , both were run off 9887's )

the first combo sounded vastly better, but it was also more expensive , so I guess its not a fair comparison

Hi green, the enc was a sealed one, not ported.
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Old 17th March 2009, 14:52   #69
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
listened to a Polk mono + ported ID sub combo, and an Alpine mono + Sealed GZ sub combo.

The IDQ was in a sealed Box green!

Me to agree that the first one was better
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Old 17th March 2009, 16:31   #70
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Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
@arpan, I will not be able to answer this very technically, which I'm sure the other gurus will be able to.
That is an understatement. Hydra that was a nice reply.

Arpan, Hydra was just being modest.
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Old 17th March 2009, 16:45   #71
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Originally Posted by Nandan View Post
The IDQ was in a sealed Box green!

Me to agree that the first one was better
But i remembered seeing ports somewhere!.

EDIT: Oh wait , that was on the rear parcel tray. I must be getting old
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Old 17th March 2009, 18:46   #72
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Thanks Hydra, fantastic reply, easy to understand
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Old 17th March 2009, 19:31   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok
Now going back to generalities, the max rating of 1000w RMS is the maximum the sub can take without reaching its thermal limits. And as you know, for an everyday music listening session you don't take any sub even close to its limits (even if you listen to music a bit loud). This sub does not really need 600w RMS to start playing bass that is fast and musical to give the typical listener the enjoyment of listening to music.

That said, feeding 600w RMS to this sub will make it play a bit faster and the bass will indeed be a bit more dynamic and musical. And of course it will play louder. BUT, to use a % for the purpose of illustration, feeding 300 to 350w RMS to this sub will give you about 80-85% of the enjoyment you get when you feed this sub 600w RMS.
It's all about preferences. And perception. Both these factors can differ vastly from person to person and can be influenced by an infinite number of factors. But for this argument's sake, I'll stick to precisely your ideology.

Not to rebuke your rather nice explanation which was surely perfectly relevant to the case in point and to you as an individual, but let me ask you a couple questions.

1. If there was a sub from ID that had a power handling of 300 W rms and the ability to produce the same SQ that you perceive from the ID Max, would you still buy the ID Max and power it with 300 W rms? Or buy the 300W ID and use the saved money to buy, say, a 500 W rms amplifier? Surely you're not the type that associates higher power handling with better sound quality, hence it can be safely assumed that you believe that it is possible for any brand to have a subwoofer of identical or better sound quality with lower power handling in the power range that we are talking about. The converse is usually the hard part.

2. Since you say that in %age terms (although actual watts consumed for enjoyable listening are far lower than maximum available amplifier power):

- powering a 1000W rms subwoofer with 600W is your definition of unit performance, a reference.

- powering a 1000W subwoofer with half that power is about 20% lower performance

- hence powering a 1000W sub with 1000W must be about 30% better performance than the reference?

So, shouldn't it be thrilling for you to have a 300 W subwoofer with the same sound quality, running on a 550-600W amplifier? Considering that the amp is not even close to breaking a sweat. THD levels are the lowest. The subwoofer at operating wattage is well within the operating range, and within the linear excursion limits! And you're not even spending more money!

And I am not even getting into the cases, which I regard as perfectly normal, of those individuals who want to get more OR most bang for the buck. By your theory, they'd feel very cheated.

Last edited by Bass&Trouble : 17th March 2009 at 19:34.
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Old 17th March 2009, 20:12   #74
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Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
It's all about preferences. And perception. Both these factors can differ vastly from person to person and can be influenced by an infinite number of factors.
+ 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
feeding 300 to 350w RMS to this sub will give you about 80-85% of the enjoyment you get when you feed this sub 600w RMS.
Fantastic reply and it is very much true.
AFAIK Hydra has a very great music sense and his level of listening is well balanced.
We both have the same IDQv2 subs while mine was getting installed, I was listening to his. He was using ~200 RMs IIRC to power the IDQ . Not sufficiently loud to my preference,
while my Polk Mono was powering the IDQ with 400W when i heard it.
85% to 100% is very much significant is what i would like to mention.
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Old 17th March 2009, 20:35   #75
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Thanks for the nice words, folks

@B&T, as you rightly pointed out, the my post was based completely on my preferences on how I'd like my setup to sound like, and the kind of bass I like. My preferences may not match with somebody else's.

Another point I wanted to make was that the end-result of the ICE system (being able to enjoy music) is what counts. And that what counts is not exactly how well the ratings of the various components are matched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
1. If there was a sub from ID that had a power handling of 300 W rms and the ability to produce the same SQ that you perceive from the ID Max, would you still buy the ID Max and power it with 300 W rms? Or buy the 300W ID and use the saved money to buy, say, a 500 W rms amplifier?
If I get the same SQ as the IDMax from another sub for less, I'd definitely buy that other sub. And yes, with the money saved, if I could buy an amp (with a higher power rating) that I feel makes the sub sound even better I definitely would.

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Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
Surely you're not the type that associates higher power handling with better sound quality, hence it can be safely assumed that you believe that it is possible for any brand to have a subwoofer of identical or better sound quality with lower power handling in the power range that we are talking about. The converse is usually the hard part.
I did not quite get where you are coming from. I suspect you misread my earlier post to be one where I'm saying that powering a sub with its rated power is wrong. NO. That is not what I was saying.

I'm all for powering the IDMax with a 1000w amp, as long as I can afford such an amp. Believe me, if I could buy a 1000w amp (that sounds like the TRU S500 amp I listened to, with 700 extra watts) just like that, with no concern for the money spent, I definitely would. I'm sure that a 1000w amp will make the IDMax sound great.

What I was saying was, a 1000w amp is not really needed to make the IDMax sound good enough. Even a 300w RMS amp (the TRU S500 I listened to is rated 300w at 4 ohms) will do the job. A 600w RMS amp will do the job better. But will it enhance the experience to such an extent that I need to spend the extra money for such an amp? I don't think so. Not for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
2. Since you say that in %age terms (although actual watts consumed for enjoyable listening are far lower than maximum available amplifier power):

- powering a 1000W rms subwoofer with 600W is your definition of unit performance, a reference.

- powering a 1000W subwoofer with half that power is about 20% lower performance

- hence powering a 1000W sub with 1000W must be about 30% better performance than the reference?
I think the earlier portion of my reply should answer your question. As I said in my post you've referred to, the % I mentioned was simply for the purposes of illustration -- to paint a picture that would help illustrate what I was saying.

I'm sure that you of all people know that one cannot measue the enjoyment one gains from listening to music in raw figures. In my post I refer to 'enjoyment', and not 'performance'. Yes, performance can be measured in figures. But IMHO figures (such as the 1000w RMS rating of the IDMax, or the 300w rating of the TRU amp, or the dB level that this sub will generate when powered by this amp) will not tell us how much we will enjoy listening to the IDMax with 'x' components and 'y' HU.

But I will agree with what you said. Yes, powering a 1000w sub with a 1000w amp will definitely give better performance figures than powering a 1000w sub with a 300w amp, or a 600w amp. I did not say this was no so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
So, shouldn't it be thrilling for you to have a 300W subwoofer with the same sound quality, running on a 550-600W amplifier? Considering that the amp is not even close to breaking a sweat. THD levels are the lowest. The subwoofer at operating wattage is well within the operating range, and within the linear excursion limits! And you're not even spending more money!
If I could have a 300w sub that sounds identical to the IDMax, and run it off an amp that sounds identical to the TRU S500, but pushes 550-600w, and have all that for the same amount (or less!!!) that I'd have to pay to buy an IDMax (34K) and a TRU S500 (51K), I'd be tickled pink. Especially if actually had the 34K + 51K to spend!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
And I am not even getting into the cases, which I regard as perfectly normal, of those individuals who want to get more OR most bang for the buck. By your theory, they'd feel very cheated.
I don't understand how somebody could feel cheated if he listens to a setup he would want, like it, and then buy the equipment he listened to.

Last edited by hydrashok : 17th March 2009 at 20:40.
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