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Old 17th March 2009, 20:51   #76
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Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
But I will agree with what you said. Yes, powering a 1000w sub with a 1000w amp will definitely give better performance figures than powering a 1000w sub with a 300w amp, or a 600w amp.
Hydra...the power rating of the amp is one thing and sub power handling is another. A sub can sound better on a 300 watts amp than a 1000 watts one even if we keep all other parameter same. The sounding of the sub If played loud it will be located or will over power the other components. If tuned properly we do not need even 300-500 watts power for the sub, People putting heavy amps are due to the reason of headroom and THD levels of the amp so the setup plays clean.

The 1000 watts are never required untill a person want to give butter chicken in the back seat. In my car I have tuned the sub in that way that it cannot be located easily or it is very hard to even tell that the subs are playing or not. And I have few forum members who have auditioned my ride and said is the sub playing or not.

Note :- I am not doing any marketing here just sharing some knowledge.

Last edited by low_bass_makker : 17th March 2009 at 20:58.
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Old 17th March 2009, 20:59   #77
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So any 1000W amp is better than any 300W amp?

Last edited by navpreet318 : 17th March 2009 at 21:16.
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Old 17th March 2009, 21:06   #78
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Delete this post.................

Last edited by low_bass_makker : 17th March 2009 at 21:07.
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Old 17th March 2009, 21:15   #79
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Originally Posted by navpreet318 View Post
So any 1000W amp is better than any 300W amp?

Cool.Gunbir i'm no longer falling for that underpowered genesis.now i'm buying the sony.i hope they have a 1000W amp.
May not be. A 1000 W Dhoom Amp may not be better than a JBL 300W.
You have compared Sony with Genesis here. No offence bro
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Old 17th March 2009, 22:07   #80
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Talking

Oh man!! where is the wall i need to bang my head.

ah here it is

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Old 17th March 2009, 22:35   #81
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Originally Posted by Prass View Post
May not be. A 1000 W Dhoom Amp may not be better than a JBL 300W.
You have compared Sony with Genesis here. No offence bro
,Sarcasm was included in that reply! You missed out on that.

@Rohan

Do audition the products in your own car and on the same music you are use to listening.What you might hear in some one else's car will not sound the same in your car.
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Old 17th March 2009, 22:56   #82
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Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
So, shouldn't it be thrilling for you to have a 300 W subwoofer with the same sound quality, running on a 550-600W amplifier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
But I will agree with what you said. Yes, powering a 1000w sub with a 1000w amp will definitely give better performance figures than powering a 1000w sub with a 300w amp, or a 600w amp. I did not say this was no so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
If tuned properly we do not need even 300-500 watts power for the sub, People putting heavy amps are due to the reason of headroom and THD levels of the amp so the setup plays clean..
Quote:
Originally Posted by navpreet318 View Post
So any 1000W amp is better than any 300W amp?
I have said this before and at the risk of repeating myself I wold advise all of you to study in detail the physics of a loudspeaker more specifically a subwoofer.

In almost all cases I can remember (I have not tested today's big Xmax woofers like the Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Hailstorm, Male-storm (pun intended), etc...) every woofer I have tested has reached it's physical limits at much lower wattages (and SPL levels) than their thermal ratings imply.

How?

Well lets put it this way...
How loud a woofer will play (assuming the woofer is in an ideal enviroment wrt box and room) depends on
a) How efficient/sensitive it is
b) How much power it can handle
c) What frequency it is reproducing

A woofer (one that is say 90db/1W/1db) that can produce 120db at 150Hz with 1000W or power might only produce 100db at 50Hz (hence hitting it's limits at 10W) and 90db at 20Hz (yes at just 1W!). While this is an extreme case (Scan Speak 18W 8546 tested in 15 liters sealed - from recollection) as the woofer tested was not really a subwoofer it is used to illustrate what I am trying to say dramatically.

At 20Hz what becomes more important is
a) the room/cabin (absorbtion, difraction, etc..)
b) the location of the woofer in the room
c) the tuning of the woofer in it's box

When a woofer (which is usually a very reactive load) is forced to move a lot it generates a lot of back emf. To control the woofer's movement under such circumstances amplifiers with higher damping factors are preferred. Damping factors of 100 are not uncommon and good amps will have damping factors as high 500.

I would go as far to say that given a woofer that has a particularly large Xmax (hence probably also a high Mms - to keep Vas, Fs and Qts reasoanable) a 100W amp with a damping factor of 500 might prove more efficient than a 1000W amp with a damping factor of 50.

Many of you may have noticed that your dad's or grandad's old valve stereo amp (with a damping factor of aroud 30) did quite well with his old (low Xmax) speakers and produced listenable music. This is becasue the speaker and amp were well matched. Take that old amp and mate it to a Maelstorm and it will sound tubby and dead.

Now I dont want to start a debate between the Steg and TRU/Audison camps as to which amp is better; the cases I have illustrated are only to hypothetical examples so that everyone realises that Watts are not holy grail for LF performance.

For more read this.
http://www.loudspeakers.net/files/technote/dampfact.pdf
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Old 17th March 2009, 23:02   #83
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Its actually good that these arguments arise here on tbhp.Atleast I get to learn something new every time you post Navin Ji.

Today i have learnt about back emf and damping factor.Thank you.
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Old 17th March 2009, 23:51   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
.......
a 100W amp with a damping factor of 500 might prove more efficient than a 1000W amp with a damping factor of 50.
........
so that everyone realises that Watts are not holy grail for LF performance.
Does that give some clue regarding which sub produces better SQ: 2-ohm or 4-ohm (discussed in Magma's "40K ..." thread), assuming the amp is capable of pumping enough power in 4-ohm mode itself, and subs are 2 variants of a same design? Should 4-ohm version be preferred?
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Old 18th March 2009, 00:17   #85
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There is nothing like a perfect SQ Sub.
Its upto your ears.

However playing the subs ( any no.) is better to be played at 4 ohms than 2 ohms
(As far as i know)
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Old 18th March 2009, 01:02   #86
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I went to Gyro today to audition some subs
Met Gunbir Paji,hellspawn,noidaboy and m4ugr8

I tested 3 subs
i) idv3 12 inch (ported box)
ii) idqv2 15 inch(sealed box)
iii) Rainbow hammer(company made enclosure..i think)

I liked the idv3 it was a good sub went very low had nice bass

Rainbow hammer was not to my liking.and after listening to the others dont think i would go for it.

Idq 15 was the best according to me out of these.I really liked the bass it was able to go low and was able to to integrate itself wit the tune without too much boom boom.Considerin going in for that.

I would also like to mention that Gyro isnt just a place where you can buy ICE but its a place where you actually feel comfortable and know you are buying the right thing to your liking and satisfaction.

Gunbir paaji and hellspawn sat with me in the car for atleast an hour explained the smallest details about each and every sub asked me my likes dislikes tuned accordingly.They put in every sub made me hear a track and saw if i liked it or not.They went that extra mile just to see i was happy and satisfied and didnt even push me once to buy anythin.It was a relly good experience.
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Old 18th March 2009, 02:19   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanGT View Post
I went to Gyro today to audition some subs
Met Gunbir Paji,hellspawn,noidaboy and m4ugr8

I tested 3 subs
i) idv3 12 inch (ported box)
ii) idqv2 15 inch(sealed box)
iii) Rainbow hammer(company made enclosure..i think)

I liked the idv3 it was a good sub went very low had nice bass

Rainbow hammer was not to my liking.and after listening to the others dont think i would go for it.

Idq 15 was the best according to me out of these.I really liked the bass it was able to go low and was able to to integrate itself wit the tune without too much boom boom.Considerin going in for that.

I would also like to mention that Gyro isnt just a place where you can buy ICE but its a place where you actually feel comfortable and know you are buying the right thing to your liking and satisfaction.

Gunbir paaji and hellspawn sat with me in the car for atleast an hour explained the smallest details about each and every sub asked me my likes dislikes tuned accordingly.They put in every sub made me hear a track and saw if i liked it or not.They went that extra mile just to see i was happy and satisfied and didnt even push me once to buy anythin.It was a relly good experience.
+1 to that. Same experience me too. It's really comfortable there, siting like between friends only.

Last edited by superbhikari : 18th March 2009 at 02:29.
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Old 18th March 2009, 03:18   #88
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Nice to hear about your Gyro experience, Rohan!

Navin, that was a great explanation.
Hydra, one of the best posts I have seen on the forum. Keep it up.
Abhinav! Not necessarily bro. It has a lot to do with the whole setup before we can actually judge about 2ohms and 4ohms.

IDQ is absolute musical heaven. I'm yet to listen to a 15" one. But keeping in mind the performance and perfection of it's 12" and 10" brothers, I'm sure it should be a great sounding one.
What was the distinguished quality you found in IDQ which wasn't much present in the others?
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Old 18th March 2009, 09:51   #89
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Originally Posted by rohanGT View Post
Gunbir paaji and hellspawn sat with me in the car for atleast an hour explained the smallest details about each and every sub asked me my likes dislikes tuned accordingly.
+1. I dont know the rest of the bunch, but yes Gunbir is indeed a very knowledgable and helpful guy.

Do try to audition more brands.. if you'd like to hear GZs, do let me know as I have them in my car.
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Old 18th March 2009, 10:28   #90
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Originally Posted by santosh.s View Post
Does that give some clue regarding which sub produces better SQ: 2-ohm or 4-ohm (discussed in Magma's "40K ..." thread), assuming the amp is capable of pumping enough power in 4-ohm mode itself, and subs are 2 variants of a same design? Should 4-ohm version be preferred?
The way I look at it (I can be wrong becuase my information bank is dated) I would prefer the 4 ohm verion of most subs to their 2 ohm version. The 4 ohm version is likely to tax the amp less, allowing the amp to better control the sub. Rememebr subwoofers with their large air core coils are really very reactive loads and this means that the amp has to fight the sub. THe struggle get worse as much of the subwoofer's voice coil leaves the magnetic circuit.

So we are not saying the 4 oohm sub is better than the 2 ohm version but that most amps will be happier with the 4ohm version than the 2 ohm version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanGT View Post
Idq 15 was the best according to me out of these.
Ref IDQ15: not surprised. Biggest Sd, sealed box. Big Sd mean small movement for same SPL hence better control of voice coil. Sealed box subs often offer better in-cabin integration (when combined with cabin gain) than ported subs.
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