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Old 15th July 2009, 20:41   #151
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Originally Posted by pranava999 View Post
Now I am seriously confused and lost . I intend to use a 5 channel amp. I don't think the stock HU speaker level outputs have a dedicated sub level output.
Hey, chill ! If you're planning to use a 5 channel amp, then the Subwoofer Signal Routing switch will allow you to set the sub channel input source, which could be either your front or rear speaker inputs, or a dedicated subwoofer input(which you don't have). I think you'll need to use the X-overs for the sub and you're good to BOOM ! Just make sure that the 5 channel amp you're getting has this feature. (what amp are you getting anyway? PM me if its a secret.)
Honestly, I don't have any experience with a 5 channel amp, and this is an educated deduction based on my research on the web.

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So basically, wouldn't the cleansweep also function as an LOC as it can accept speaker level inputs and then digitally re-eq the stock system output to return a flat signal range across the spectrum to all four channels?
Of course it will. You will get a Flat level signal ready to be fed into your amp. So, don't worry here. What I needed to know from you was that since your "cleansweep" will return a FLAT signal, what control do you have to adjust the tonal quality of music track? I mean, the EQ in the HU and Trebel and Bass controls will be of no use ?

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Originally Posted by pranava999 View Post
BTW did you get the Linea ICEd, and if you did what did you do?
Yes I did. I got Rainbow Dreamline CSX265 component speakers up front , Rainbow 12inch Hammer Sub, wired up by 4 gauge wiring kit, powered by Kenwood 8404 amp. I also got a Bull HLA4 which I'm using to get the 4 channel RCA for the amp input.
So, its basically a front stage set up right now, but I'm going to change my HU to an aftermarket one and then add a monobloc amp and rear speakers.
Damping with Dynamat Extreme is on the cards after that.

cheers

Last edited by ghost_rider : 15th July 2009 at 20:44. Reason: correction
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Old 16th July 2009, 10:34   #152
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Originally Posted by ghost_rider View Post
... Subwoofer Signal Routing switch ... and this is an educated deduction based on my research on the web. ...
Good show, Watson! This can also be done using a splitter.

The main issue is whether the sub amp gets a fading or non-fading input. A dedicated sub-out from the HU is non-fading, i.e. signal level does not change with the Fader setting. But, as long as one does not have the habit of constantly changing settings, especially Fader, fading input need not be a problem.

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Originally Posted by ghost_rider View Post
... Of course it will. You will get a Flat level signal ready to be fed into your amp. So, don't worry here. What I needed to know from you was that since your "cleansweep" will return a FLAT signal, what control do you have to adjust the tonal quality of music track? I mean, the EQ in the HU and Trebel and Bass controls will be of no use ? ...
Of course it *won't*! It will only apply a pre-set curve to the incoming signal, precisely because it DOESN'T know what 'flat' is in the original signal. There is no standard which governs the electrical signal levels at different frequencies. "Flat" refers to "no tampering of the signal". It will only be a rare coincidence that this pre-set curve is the exact inverse of the one set on the HU so that they virtually cancel out, giving you back the unmanipulated original signal.

Check the manual. One is expected/supposed to set ONLY at the DSP, and not at the HU. And it will be *just* that - expected / supposed to. The DSP can't do anything about the person using the system, nor can it read what has been set on the HU. If the person has a bias towards bass or treble and adjusts from the HU, the DSP will futher buck/boost it as per the curve set in it, assuming "the incoming signal must be like this only". This curve is *not* user settable (unless one figures out the calibration tones in the accompanying CD and makes a modified one; but please don't try it - you will perhaps screw up what is decent enough).

The algorithm in the DSP is volume-dependent, i.e. the curve is different at different volume levels (kind of built-in Loudness function), but here again it is effective *only* if one uses the volume knob of the unit, not the HU.

In short, the DSP will do what *IT* thinks is right - you may or may not agree with it. And, like in the story of the Emperor's new clothes, most people will actually agree with it - since "JL Audio would surely know what they are saying / doing".
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Old 16th July 2009, 16:01   #153
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The algorithm in the DSP is volume-dependent, i.e. the curve is different at different volume levels (kind of built-in Loudness function), but here again it is effective *only* if one uses the volume knob of the unit, not the HU.
there in lies the problem with ALL DSP units like the Alpine 650, RF 360.2, etc...that and that most of these units dont allow you to change the settings to your taste.
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Old 16th July 2009, 16:18   #154
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Good show, Watson! This can also be done using a splitter.

The main issue is whether the sub amp gets a fading or non-fading input. A dedicated sub-out from the HU is non-fading, i.e. signal level does not change with the Fader setting. But, as long as one does not have the habit of constantly changing settings, especially Fader, fading input need not be a problem.
This may be a stupid question, but why would i want to split the signal if I'm using a 5 channel amp which has the option of Subwoofer Signal Routing switch ? This way my fader works between the front and rear while the sub gets its own dedicated signal. Also, theoretically speaking, won't using a splitter deteriorate my sound quality? I might not practically notice it, but in theory?

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Of course it *won't*! It will only apply a pre-set curve to the incoming signal, precisely because it DOESN'T know what 'flat' is in the original signal. There is no standard which governs the electrical signal levels at different frequencies. "Flat" refers to "no tampering of the signal". It will only be a rare coincidence that this pre-set curve is the exact inverse of the one set on the HU so that they virtually cancel out, giving you back the unmanipulated original signal.

Check the manual. One is expected/supposed to set ONLY at the DSP, and not at the HU. And it will be *just* that - expected / supposed to. The DSP can't do anything about the person using the system, nor can it read what has been set on the HU. If the person has a bias towards bass or treble and adjusts from the HU, the DSP will futher buck/boost it as per the curve set in it, assuming "the incoming signal must be like this only". This curve is *not* user settable (unless one figures out the calibration tones in the accompanying CD and makes a modified one; but please don't try it - you will perhaps screw up what is decent enough).

The algorithm in the DSP is volume-dependent, i.e. the curve is different at different volume levels (kind of built-in Loudness function), but here again it is effective *only* if one uses the volume knob of the unit, not the HU.

In short, the DSP will do what *IT* thinks is right - you may or may not agree with it. And, like in the story of the Emperor's new clothes, most people will actually agree with it - since "JL Audio would surely know what they are saying / doing".
Great, from what I understand, one needs to calibrate the "cleansweep" using the supplied cd, and the "cleansweep" gets rid of the amplification done in the HU and gives a clean flat signal. Now, after this, one can change the settings of the bass/treble or the EQ settings on the HU to suit one's taste, and the "cleansweep" will pass it through to the amp. So basically, "cleansweep" will fix the signal only at the time of callibartion and not all the time.

Also, the callibration is done for a paricular volume of the HU and altering this volume will also have an effect on the "cleaning" done by "cleansweep". Thus, one needs to control the volume using the volume knob of the "cleansweep", rather than the one on the HU, correct?
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Old 16th July 2009, 19:18   #155
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
there in lies the problem with ALL DSP units ...
Sometimes designers' ego, sometimes lower cost, sometimes simpler software ... there is always an engineering reason.

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Originally Posted by ghost_rider View Post
... if I'm using a 5 channel amp which has the option of Subwoofer Signal Routing switch ? This way my fader works between the front and rear while the sub gets its own dedicated signal. Also, theoretically speaking, won't using a splitter deteriorate my sound quality? I might not practically notice it, but in theory? ...
* Non-fading sub-out comes from HU, and doesn't need the Signal Routing switch you describe. The Signal Routing switch you describe *does not* create the non-fading sub signal!
* If there is no Signal Routing swtch, an external splitter will do the job. If there is, there is a splitter inside feeding the switch
* And, no, a splitter will not deteriorate the signal (not at LF at least)

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Originally Posted by ghost_rider View Post
... and the "cleansweep" gets rid of the amplification done in the HU and gives a clean flat signal. ...
No, it won't - I explained why. It will apply it's logic in addition to whatever was done in the HU.

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Originally Posted by ghost_rider View Post
... Now, after this, one can change the settings of the bass/treble or the EQ settings on the HU to suit one's taste, and the "cleansweep" will pass it through to the amp. ...
Yes, but it actually does not expect you to do that. Heh heh it does not know you will anyway do it!

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Originally Posted by ghost_rider View Post
... So basically, "cleansweep" will fix the signal only at the time of callibartion and not all the time. ...
Huh? NO, all the time. Calibration is one time.

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Originally Posted by ghost_rider View Post
... Also, the callibration is done for a paricular volume of the HU and altering this volume will also have an effect on the "cleaning" done by "cleansweep". Thus, one needs to control the volume using the volume knob of the "cleansweep", rather than the one on the HU, correct?
"Cleaning" is in the metaphorical sense - it is marketing gobbledygook. Please don't be misled by it - this box doesn't do any signal cleaning in the real sense. If your HU signal is poor or noisy, it will stay that way, and may also become noisier (see manual).

It actually boosts / bucks different parts of the signal according to a pre-set law/profile. This profile is slightly different at low volume as compared to high volume. But 'volume' it can only sense it's own built-in one - this is what it thinks the user wants so it acts based upon this. The HU's volume changes appear to it as soft or loud passages in music, so it cannot do anything about it - it cannot figure out you fiddled with the volume control at the HU!
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Old 16th July 2009, 23:06   #156
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Hi Guys seems like a lot of stuff has been discussed in a short span. My last post was just before I left for Coimbatore and now after a lousy overnight bus journey and a tiring work day involving market research amongst steel traders, most of the technical stuff discussed on the JL and the sub has just flown over my head.

For anyone interested I did find a few youtube links to 6 videos on the Jl audio cleansweep training. Here is the first link

Agree with the bit that the CS will give a signal that it 'thinks' is flat. Guess I will know if this flat signal is good enough only when I try it out. Keeping my fingers crossed!


BTW ghostrider, if you plan on upgrading the stock HU, won't you lose out on Blue and me integration as well as the media player integration? Willing to forgo them is it? Be careful this could mess up the electricals (just an uneducated guess). BTW where is the thread on the new buy and also the iceing? Am still waiting.
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Old 17th July 2009, 11:05   #157
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
... most of these units dont allow you to change the settings to your taste.
Looking at the videos @pranava999 provided the link for, it is quite easy to understand what the JL guys are up to - apply the inverse of the equalization the HU is applying (ignore the user setting at the HU; this is the inherent equalization the HU was designed with). No more, no less - this is a fit-and-forget monochromatic solution. Calibration is to figure out that 'inverse'. Any further tweaking to make the system sound to your liking is on the HU *post calibration*!

There are a few things that are not shown in the videos, like the RTA display during the calibration when the 'inverse' is being worked out. Also not apparent is the correction for the 'loudness' type of EQ at low volume level - the person talks about the phenomenon, but not about how JL is handling that. Also, the calibration is at one signal level only - what to do at other signal/volume control levels is, I think, a pre-set synthetic extrapolation only.

The JL approach appeals to the engineering side of my brain. More than 30 years back, a UK company (I forget whether that was Dual or Quad) used to evangelize "straight wire amplification", i.e. absolute flat response without *any* coloration. For a long time I held that concept sacrosanct, till about 25 years back some doctor in Switzerland told me drinking distilled water is bad for my health (I was contemplating drinking DW because I used to get upset stomach in Switzerland, but nowhere else).
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Old 6th August 2009, 12:16   #158
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Default UPDATE - The eventful journey of the amp

I was very keen on 5 channel amp and after a lot research online and consideration of the feedback from our resident gurus as well (thank you for your time and patience), I decided the on the amp. I am sure a few will have their opinions and say on the choice (especially, Doc FrankenICEstein ) It just made sense to me at the price I was getting it for.

I was looking forward to getting my hands on it after nearly a month's wait. I was so damn excited, when it's journey to B'lore began. The final installment (component) of my first serious ICE saga was falling in place.

Friend arrives in B'lore, am excited to meet him (and even more excited for you know what), then he gives me the bad news. The bag containing the amp cannot be traced and has not arrived. Seems like there's been a goof up at the layover in Paris. My heart sank, I'm sure it skipped a beat or two. Did not know ho to react. The pal had a serious look on his mug. $400 down the drain seemed a real possibility. Of all the people, it had to happen to me...

"Hey, relax buddy.I was pulling your leg a bit! While it's true the bag has not arrived, fortunately it's been traced!" So that's one less headache!
"However, there's something else, just hope it gets delivered without the customs hauling it up and looking for a little palm greasing" My heart was back to normal though a little disappointed at the thought of having to spend some more and having to postpone buying a sub.

Two days later, the bag arrives at his doorstep. I get a call from him stating that along with the bag he has a notice in hand from the customs dept. to show cause as to why they should not impose duty on the amp andif we can prove that it is well below the customs limit of Rs.25,000 for inapplicability of the duty. "Shucks!!"

A man has got to do what a man has to for his ICE! Gotover to my friend's place and lo behold the guy's still in his shorts and tee sipping on some ice tea! Next to him is a really nice looking piece of equipment!

Seeing it for the first time, I could not help smiling. The grin was an ear to ear one! "Man (censored version)! You were not even as happy, seeing your best buddy after a year or so!"

I could not help it. I held it, admired it. Well it's one beautiful looking piece. Does it deserve to go into the boot and not be looked and admired just for it's external design?

BTW the birth sheet read 124W and 439W!!

Last edited by pranava999 : 6th August 2009 at 12:25.
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Old 16th August 2009, 14:13   #159
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Any updates, pranava?
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Old 17th August 2009, 15:01   #160
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update them pranava999. update them.
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Old 19th August 2009, 00:39   #161
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Ha HA! Frank you are more excited than I am right now, for a lot more reasons and deservedly so.

Yes JD, the update is that all the equipment(dsp+amp+speakers+sub) is here and the only thing pending is the actual install that gets postponed due to various reasons. I hope to get the install done by the end of the month; time, work and money permitting. I will be keeping my fingers crossed that it will be worth the time, the irrationality,effort and savings that has gone into it. It sure has been one heck of a learning experience thus far!

Am still contemplating one last piece of equipment that I hope will definitely improve the sonic experience, but thats in the near future.

Last edited by pranava999 : 19th August 2009 at 00:45.
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Old 19th August 2009, 00:52   #162
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god bless you my friend. i am sure the install will be done soon, and you will be enjoying sweeeet music in your linea.

PS: what sub? '-)
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Old 19th August 2009, 00:58   #163
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god bless you my friend. i am sure the install will be done soon, and you will be enjoying sweeeet music in your linea.

PS: what sub? '-)
Thanks Frank.
It sure ain't the JBL W12GTi 60th anniv special! All in good time so they say.
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Old 19th August 2009, 01:52   #164
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Yes, all in good time. Do you plan to damp the damn doors as well? Tank or not, the linea will benefit a lot acoustically if you damp the doors
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Old 19th August 2009, 22:41   #165
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Yes, all in good time. Do you plan to damp the damn doors as well? Tank or not, the linea will benefit a lot acoustically if you damp the doors
Am contemplating it but again budget permitting.
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