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Old 4th June 2009, 00:55   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Yes in my opinion as of today a good car audio system playing a CD will outperform a PC based system playing flac (of equal cost).
I dont understand head or tail of these technical scores that you guys are having, but i will put my money on what Navin said for today (June 4th 2009).

Actually i have noticed that nothing beats a good quality company recording on a CD when it comes to quality, at this point of time, no matter how costly/advanced the digital device that provides the inputs or output is
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Old 4th June 2009, 01:06   #182
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I dont see any lies in any of DA's posts.
I agree if anybody prove that the following statements are correct:

Quote:
FR and bandwidth are not signal properties, they are observed physical properties of devices used in the chain
Quote:
the response to transients is the characteristic of the analog device/system itself to which the signal is fed
Quote:
Lower Noise Floor: theoretical issue, since self-noise is negligible
Quote:
Less Quantization Errors: theoretical issue
Quote:
High Dynamic range: cannot exceed that of the recorded stream
Quote:
Frequency spectrum: aren't the current set of codec technologies already covering it, even mathematically?
Quote:
Zero DC Offset: mathematical issue only, and one of the basic things that was overcome about 25 years back!
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Old 4th June 2009, 01:10   #183
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Actually i have noticed that nothing beats a good quality company recording on a CD
No Bhai, what you are hearing in CDs are not the pure music what your musicians and sound engineers like to hear. Its a dithered down sampled signal. If you are watching HD movies in Home, then why not you try to listen to those music what your musicians heard i ntheir headphone while performing/recording. (I believe no one is recording at 16/44.1 any more)

Quote:
We did a days worth of tests - the same program recorded at 48, 96, and
192k at the same time. We played piano, acoustic guitar, percussion,
drums. Not a scientific A/B/C test, but as blind as we could make it.
Everyone (6 people - musicians, engineers, bystander) picked the 192k.
Most telling, the piano player ran into the room after hearing the 192k
from outside the control room saying "I never heard it sound like I hear
it while I'm playing."

You never realize how bad 48k sounds until you do this test. 192k is
pure and airy, 96k has a mid-range grunge that appears, and 48k really
has a lot of the mid-range hardness.

That being said, we don't go out of my way to record anything at 96k
anymore. It's too much effort for not a lot of advantage in the end for
most types of recording. But if I had to make a real "audiophile", we'd do it at 192k in a flash.

--
Bobby Owsinski
Surround Associates
Surround Associates - Experts in Surround Sound
I am not here to promote any of my products or to prove that I am having a SQL setup.(I even agree that my system sound stupid) And I never recommend anybody other than B&T even to try this in car, as I know B&T can't be a culprit for me easily.

Why don't you people consider to hear at least some 24/96Khz music of your favorite band in your home setup and after that you can shout at me that 'I am stupid'. I believe even a inbuilt Motherboard sound card like realtek supports 192Khz, so you don't even need to invest anything.(I know you people are good at torrenting for the source - and dont rely on remastered audio, never try lossy formats and then use foobar for 192Khz and make sure your are not old and your soundcard is not downsampling)

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 4th June 2009 at 01:25.
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Old 4th June 2009, 01:22   #184
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Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
No Bhai, what you are hearing in CDs are not the pure music what your musicians and sound engineers like to hear. Its a dithered down sampled signal. If you are watching HD movies in Home, then why not you try to listen to those music what your musicians heard i ntheir headphone while performing/recording. (I believe no one is recording at 16/44.1 any more)
one more time.

But isnt that the reason why they are paid so much??! to make it sound good to our ears even while being transported in a CD and played in T, D and H's players. I dont think even the above average listener, would appreciate RAW music if its available, and then has to be played in a normal player? Will they? having to tweak the recording using a equalizer at the most?

Just like make up for top models, is for our eyes
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Old 4th June 2009, 01:33   #185
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Yes in my opinion as of today a good car audio system playing a CD will outperform a PC based system playing flac (of equal cost).
Agreed, but whats your opinion if I play 24/192 Flac/8 and the car audio plays a pure uncompressed original CD Music.

Quote:
I dont think even the above average listener, would appreciate RAW music if its available, and then has to be played in a normal player? Will they? having to tweak the recording using a equalizer at the most?
Its like we have people in older generation who watch movies in black&white. But no more and we are in a generation to watch in real HD.

Quote:
To produce a sine wave you need a signal generator not an Oscilliscope.
Agreed and you are correct again.

But my statement was, I HAVE CREATED SINE WAVE IN Oscilliscope not using Oscilliscope. (I again agreed its a sine wave for my stupid eyes - but its not Real - If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.)

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 4th June 2009 at 01:53.
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Old 4th June 2009, 10:20   #186
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
But isnt that the reason why they are paid so much??! to make it sound good to our ears even while being transported in a CD and played in T, D and H's players.
Jaggu, I have come across some real dolts in the studio and I am talking about reputed studios like The Record Plant and Electric Lady (most of my Studio work was in NYC and Frankfurt). At least in the 60s , 70s and early 80s the engineers could blame the bad recordings on chemical abuse - today's engineers are smart and clean and still sometimes produce some really attrocious stuff.

But in the end what ever this studio engineers put in the final mix is what we are forced to reproduce. Our music systems only REproduce sound - we do not create anything other than artifacnts and distortions in this reproduction process. So a bad mix can be cleaned and polished a bit but cannot be transformed into a fantastic mix - using digital techniques however the "cleaning and polishing" can take you quite far if you are judicious with the processing and have the patience and ear to do it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
No Bhai, what you are hearing in CDs are not the pure music what your musicians and sound engineers like to hear.
But IBM-bhai, we are only attempting to reproduce what is on the CD. Even the Flac/WavPack files we have are ripped from the CD. So the
CD is our master. Not all of us have regular access to master tapes of all the artists we like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
I am sorry - I don't know Der Alte is a much respected, senior Moderator.

All senior members, please don't expect any respect from our generation (or atleast stupids like me) unless you are kind enough like Sam / Navin to reply or handle us. But I agree I am wrong, and I will try to correct myself. Are you ok with me DerAlte? Or should I keep quite like B&T's thread?
1. All TBHPians deserve respect. Moderators are TBHPians too you know.

2. We would never label or call anyone stupid. You should feel free to state your opinion on any thread with the caeveat that your opinion might not be the same as everyone else's and everyone's opinion MUST be valued.

As far a PC based music vs CD goes, I believe that PC based music has a lot of potential just like the early CD players (in 1980) had. A Hard disk for exmaple is inherently more mechanically stable than the AVERAGE CD platter (better platters can be as stable as hard disks). Good DACs (for PCs) are evolving as we speak. Even PC based DSP software has many more leaps to take to achieve it's full potential but as of today MY belief is that a PC based system still cannot compare to a CD based system atleast in the high end ($5000+ price range). That however does not mean guys like you should stop trying. How would we progress then?

Lastly please do NOT discuss Moderator actions in public like the statement below.
"Dear ibm_jennifer,
You have received an infraction at Team-BHP... "

Last edited by navin : 4th June 2009 at 10:23.
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Old 4th June 2009, 10:44   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

When HD was introduced for PC, people argued its only useful for DI works and how a consumer can enjoy HD with a 15" LCD monitor. But today even a guy with a 800*600 CRT is searching the torrents for HD Movies(atleast in my college).
Just because somebody is searching for HD movies on a 800*600 monitor, it does not mean that it will make a difference. A guy can play a movie encoded in color on a B&W monitor, but that does not mean he will see color.
Many people download HD because they read somewhere HD will make a world of difference. However they do not realize that HD will make a difference only if you have the hardware to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Agreed, but whats your opinion if I play 24/192 Flac/8 and the car audio plays a pure uncompressed original CD Music.

Its like we have people in older generation who watch movies in black&white. But no more and we are in a generation to watch in real HD.

Agreed and you are correct again.

But my statement was, I HAVE CREATED SINE WAVE IN Oscilliscope not using Oscilliscope. (I again agreed its a sine wave for my stupid eyes - but its not Real - If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.)
Is popular music available in the format you describe? However I like your last statement. There are many here who do not find any difference between 192kbps and 320kbps mp3(Me included).. So extolling the benefits of uncompressed audio in a car environment is like playing flute in front of a buffalo. Most of us won't be able to make a difference.
However your thread has inspired me to atleast look for some software based solution for my home PC wherein I can change the sound signature such that watching movies is more pleasurable.
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Old 4th June 2009, 12:11   #188
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
There are many here who do not find any difference between 192kbps and 320kbps mp3(Me included)..
to be fair while many cant hear the difference between 192k and 320k, some can or atleast claim they can and there most definitely is a diffference between 192k or 320k AND lossless (Flac and co).

The question still remains that what ever the rip, the source is still a commercial CD and that cant change.

You can rip the CD to hard disk in lossless but once that is done the best you can do is faithfully reproduce the rip on your speakers (if the recording itself is good). If the recording is poor it can be processed and made more listenable but usually this means parametric equallizations, band width limitation, reducing noise by companding (compressing and expanding) the signal, etc.. Again each of these are easier done in the digital domian and you have to be very knowledgeable, judicious and patient.

A well recorded, mastered and pressed CD (and tobe fair today we get many more of these than we did in the early days) will not be beat by it's Flac rip. One option however is to copy the CD in CDA format on to hard disk (it only requires about 2-3 times the space of the flac anyway). Then use the more stable hard disk platter as the source.

What IBM_J believes he can do is that he can play the music (or a series of test tones) on his car PC. Then using a good mic tweak the PC's output (which is via the sound card) using DSP software to compensate for the anamolies of the speaker, amplifier, DAC, etc. However since the speaker (like all speakers) have a different power response for different SPLs this tweaking will only be applicable to the particular SPL the testing was done at.
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Old 4th June 2009, 12:27   #189
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
The question still remains that what ever the rip, the source is still a commercial CD and that cant change.

I think IBM_J's point is, music is also launched on media that is much better then Audio CD.

For example Audio DVD. With Audio DVD, Frequency and bits per sample are better. It cab be up to 192 KHz and 24 bit.
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Old 4th June 2009, 12:48   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

But my statement was, I HAVE CREATED SINE WAVE IN Oscilliscope not using Oscilliscope. (I again agreed its a sine wave for my stupid eyes - but its not Real -
ibm, if you had an oscilloscope whose sampling frequency was higher and tolerance was lower, your pure sine wave would appear impure again. At some level a 100% pure sunusoidal wave does not exist. Everytime you have one, if you "zoom in" (figuratively speaking) it won't be pure again. That was the point being conveyed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
For example Audio DVD. With Audio DVD, Frequency and bits per sample are better. It cab be up to 192 KHz and 24 bit.
I think you are referring to DVD-Audio. That is the correct name for that format.

Quote:
All senior members, please don't expect any respect from our generation (or atleast stupids like me) unless you are kind enough like Sam / Navin to reply or handle us.
A brash member has no right to expect kindness IBM. Nothing gives you the right to be brash.

This is a forum. We are here to share what we know and to learn from others. Navin and DA are experienced, but not always correct.
I have corrected Navin when he was wrong. It was just once or twice, but it made my day and he was happy to be corrected. It showed a mutual respect and that is the base of this forum.

If others do not agree with you, this does not change the value of what you're saying. It shows that people are taking your idea seriously enough to discuss amongst each other, instead of laughing it off.

Senior or not, Moderator or not, I don't think such a tone in an exchange of views/opinions/knowledge/information is acceptable.

You are a bright young fellow (and far more technical than I could ever be) - If I was you, I'd pick out all the gems of information from these old fellows, thank them for those gems, use whatever I felt was right (discarding all I disagree with and letting them know that I disagree with some points) and do whatever I want in the end and share my results with all. Thats what this forum is here for.

I'm not preaching to you, I'm simply guiding you - since you referred to me as a senior. I hope you can understand.
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Old 5th June 2009, 16:50   #191
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as of today MY belief is that a PC based system still cannot compare to a CD based system atleast in the high end ($5000+ price range).

Mission Failed!


And my Car PC is for Sale/exchange for a good CD/DVD player now in team-bhp bazaar! (You can send your offers for any old/new CD Players thru PM, but no Sony brand - please!)

But for those idiots who still believe a 'Car PC' is better than any High End Car CD/DVD Player, here is my final missile before retirement: http://photos.imageevent.com/cics/v0...rts%20v0.3.pdf

Thanks friends, I am retiring from this topic as I got another planet with lot of stupids like me at mp3car. (I am not saying team-bhp is not suits me for my car pc guidance, but those stupids at mp3car can atleast answer my stupid question like : relationship bw spectrum and codec - if anybody needs the answer, you can check my blog at tatasafariclub.com)

Mods, Please close this topic. I hope its useless anymore here as I retired and agreed all my statements are wrong (I found i have severe hearing problem and doctors adviced me for an operation) and I will be on leave for 1 month for an ear treatment. (I will ask to reopen the topic after the surgery, if I found my car pc is better than my friends steg/carbon setup.)

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Old 5th June 2009, 17:01   #192
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Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

Mission Failed!


Thanks friends, I got another planet with lot of stupids like me at mp3car.com
You mean to say you give up getting good sound out of a Car PC. Well atleast you can say you gave it your best shot. Well Done Son.

BTW dont get disheartend the PDF article echos the view I posted in one of my posts earlier

As PC and laptop technologies improve, more
performance and convenience benefits can be expected. Innovations are endless, e.g. laptop SATA drives
reaching 500GB, low power CPUs with greater abilities, fanless PSUs & CPUs, non mechanical hard
drives, etc.. This platform will readily exploit these innovations cost effectively.

Last edited by navin : 5th June 2009 at 17:04.
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Old 5th June 2009, 17:05   #193
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Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
I retired...
And this while all the Team-BHP old fogies plod on, lol.

To quote the Sound of Music:

So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye!
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Old 5th June 2009, 17:06   #194
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Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
[b]
But for those idiots who still believe a 'Car PC' is better than any High End Car CD/DVD Player, here is my final missile before retirement:
Thanks friends, I got another planet with lot of stupids like me at mp3car.com

Mods, Please close this topic. I hope its useless anymore here as I retired...
After how wonderfully Sam had put it, you had to come & say this.
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Old 5th June 2009, 17:21   #195
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you had to come & say this.
No, I am retiring voluntarily because no one is ready to answer my questions here. (And believe me anna, I have exams next week, so I cant diss with this audio engineering for the next one month!!!)

I have waited for 3 days for answer, but I dint get anything other than infractions and I will be happy to continue if someone here to correct me by proving the following. (Its boring bhai, people are not sharing their knowledge, instead they using their valuable time just to advice me (no, i am not referring sam - He is one of the perfect - I am referring those who I pointed my questions!!! I dont know why people are coming here and asking/dominating me with questions then hiding them self if I repeat - So its my turn to hide MYSELF!!!!Bye friends for one month and I will be back after my university exams)

Quote:

I agree if anybody prove that the following statements are correct:

Quote:
FR and bandwidth are not signal properties, they are observed physical properties of devices used in the chain
Quote:
the response to transients is the characteristic of the analog device/system itself to which the signal is fed
Quote:
Lower Noise Floor: theoretical issue, since self-noise is negligible
Quote:
Less Quantization Errors: theoretical issue
Quote:
High Dynamic range: cannot exceed that of the recorded stream
Quote:
Frequency spectrum: aren't the current set of codec technologies already covering it, even mathematically?
Quote:
Zero DC Offset: mathematical issue only, and one of the basic things that was overcome about 25 years back!
_____________

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 5th June 2009 at 17:33.
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