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Old 7th June 2009, 00:19   #211
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I would have loved if you would have done little search before coming up with this idiotic blabber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Dear Honorable respectable senior member Amitk26 (yes, you have more posts than me):

DRM is a general term for Digital rights management, its not only exist on Mobile ringtones (OMA) and Windows Media. It exists in DVD-Audio as CPPM and in Blu-ray as AACS, BD+ and now as Mark.

Digital rights management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is wrong with your reading you missed "generally" there are multiple kinds of DRM which is a generic term for content protection in industry HDCP is a specific term for what we are discussing and that perticular spec floated by intel is known as HDCP not as a DRM.
I am not talking of Wikipedia do some serious search or talk to people who work in this field.

Also as per HDCP the rendering device need to be HDCP compliant why exactly you think people buy those expensive audio amps with HDCP from Onkyo and others

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer;1335501
Again brilliant and respectful copy-paste work. Dear honorable member, there is no difference between DVD-Audio quality and TRUE-HD or DTS-MA.(Believe me, TrueHD is a [B
marketing term and it uses the same algorithm used in DVD-Audio[/b]).
ha ha ha ROTFL , Now listen same bitrate and sampling frequency does not mean encoded quality is same both Dolby an DTS developed thier own encoding distinch from pre-existing ones and that is why they license thier decoders and encoders. Encoding algorithm is exactly what justifies the cost the codec vendors ask for.
Read a bit on various encoders / decoders and container formats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

This is becasue you dont need any extra shits other than 13.8 Mbps for 24 bit 96Khz for 5.1 channels. (if you dont know math to calculate bitrate please google). And its IMPOSSIBLE to USE MORE THAN 13.8Mbps for a 24/96/5.1 Audio, even if you invented a 1000GB Blu-Blu-Ray. Its the maximum for a Linear PCM and in DVD-Audio we are using packed PCM to compress(Its again not losess, its like ZIPping your file in hard disk) it to 9.22Mbps, becasue 9.8 is the maximum througput of a DVD.

What you are saying is, You UNZIPPED file has more quality than ZIPPED file, No its not true my dear honorable senior.
That extra shits is known as encoding algorithm for Audio and that is what for royalty is charged. Taking your example tar / zip / rar are various file compressions using different algos resulting in different file size.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

Again my honorable senior, there is no consumer grade DVD-Audio or Blue-ray discs RELEASED in the world which will output the Audio thru SPDIF. You need either HDCP enabled HDMI or Analog Audio Out. Even your Software Player / graphics card / sound card dont support this my dear senior.
Huhaaa so you think you are the only one who work on professional / non consumer things . Industry work on things which will be marketed 2 years hence forth.
Any way DVD-Audio and Blue-Ray are not same
DVD-audio labels existed around 5 /6 years back but the format never took off primarily there is no great difference to normal human ear. a little bit of search on net from where you copy and paste stuff would have helped to find some consumer grade labels.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17080&type=page&qp=crootcategor yid%23%23-1%23%23-1~~q70726f63657373696e6774696d653a3e313930302d3031 2d3031~~ccat02001%23%230%23%235cvq~~nf207||4456442 d417564696f&list=y&nrp=15&sc=musicSP&sp=-bestsellingsort+skuid&usc=cat02001

Again my dear senior, there is no LOSSY algorithm implemented in the world on any of the DVD-Audio or Blu-Ray at 192Khz. (Yes, if you hear the lossy audio in a DVD-R or Blu-Ray, its not the master audio - its the substitute in DD/DTS which is actually bad quality than your CDs - Its for poor people those dont have a 96/192Khz card).

Also dear honorable, its impossible to deliver a 5.1 channel audio in 192/24 because of the throughput limitation of the Discs. May i know the name of the sound engineer who delivered you a brilliant 24/192/5.1 audio using a lossy format? Is it MP3/AAC/DTS/DD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

Dear honorable member, its not scaled down. its written by a guy who dont know that DVD-Audio and the Audio in DTS-MA / TrueHD are equal in quality. And if you dont know TrueHd uses the same Meridian packed PCM algorith for both DVD-Audio and Blue-ray.

Again respectful member, TrueHD and DTS-MA wont play ithru SPDIF. But I have tested and proved that my Analog speakers playing 24/96Khz at 5.1

Thank you dear honorables and respectable member, I have exams tomorrow and I am leaving.
Dear poser and fake understand one thing that you can verify after picking up a text book on audio and video compression algorithms.

When you sample and quantize any analog signal there is a loss , the quantized signal is not exactly what you want to store on the optical media one need to apply compression so that maximum amount of data can be stored and some interpolations for losses in human perceptible reigion is done.

Why don't you start with studying some simple algos for which reference code is available example AMR NB or MP3 or even FLAC

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
The only advantage of Blu-ray over DVD-Audio is you can have 7.1 Audio where in DVD-Audio its 5.1, but its not useful for Music/Car.

And before arguing me, please spend some time to know that MLP, LPCM, Flac DTS-MA and Truehd are lossless(they are like Zip/Rar) where DTS, EAC3, Dobly, AC3, AAC are lossy. Please have a look at my blog: Building a $5000 Car PC in TATA Safari | TATA Safari Club.com
Very well why don't you write a paper with the proof you have it will surely be published by IEEE , Now listen when someone says it is not lossy that means loss is minimized there is nothing such as 0 loss digitized signal.

Last edited by amitk26 : 7th June 2009 at 00:26.
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Old 7th June 2009, 00:46   #212
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Dear Honorable senior member, Why don't you please stop posting in my thread with wrong information.

As you think, I am not a student trained by wikipedia - I am a Sound Engineer professionally trained by Mr. Arun Bose, the one who trained A.R. Rahman and he is the HEAD sound engineer of Rangeela Movie, who is now working as the head DTS/Dolby engineer in LVP studio. Man, I am living in a studio where all your DTS-MA and TrueHD are born.

But that doesn't mean I know everything my dear senior. believe me, actually I know only 1% of what Mr. Arun Bose knows.

But I will continue to argue with you, if you prove me that the following of your statements are true. (I sill believe I am not paid to correct your BRILLIANT mistakes and I have exams tomorrow)

Quote:
Encoding algorithm is exactly what justifies the cost the codec vendors ask for.
Quote:
Any Audio encoding is alwyas lossy at the same sampling freq the compression algorithms decide how faithful audio reproduction is going to be.
Quote:
there is no great difference to normal human ear.
Quote:
ALL AV compression algorithms are lossy
Quote:
DRM generally refers to OMA DRM or WMA DRM
Quote:
Dolby TrueHD ( minimal loss)
Quote:
PC component vendors have to scale it down to DVD-Audio quality while outputting to Analog outputs for being HDCP compliant
Quote:
true music of 192Khz 24bits per sample you need either an HDMI or S/PDIF connector
Quote:
Dolby TrueHD ( again 192 Khz 24 bit Sample 5.1 with less lossy algorithm)
Quote:
Dolby TrueHD is scaled down in analog format to DVD-Audio quality as per HDCP compliance requirement.
Quote:
until you replace your JBL 75.4 with an amplifier with either S/PDIF ( limited to 5.1) or an HDMI interface you will never ever hear any actual Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA output be it 5000$ or 50000$
Somebody please help this guy/sorry this honorable senior, he doesn't know the ABC of Audio.

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Old 7th June 2009, 01:34   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Dear Honorable senior member, Why don't you please stop posting in my thread with wrong information.

As you think, I am not a student trained by wikipedia - I am a Sound Engineer professionally trained by Mr. Arun Bose, the one who trained A.R. Rahman and he is the HEAD sound engineer of Rangeela Movie, who is now working as the head DTS/Dolby engineer in LVP studio. Man, I am living in a studio where all your DTS-MA and TrueHD are born.
Good to know you Rehman in making an best of luck for your exam.
I never though that that A.R Rehman invents compression algorithms and Studio Sound engineers decide the PC card specifications and content protection compliance.

I thought this work is done by some nerdy kind of guys who spend hours behind PCs studying theory and implementation is done by people who provide code and DSPs and get payed a monthly salary without anyone knowing them

Anyway my purpose was to point out an obvious week link in your chain your ears may say it is decoded output of Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA but the specification of your sound card says otherwise.

It is your choice and if you have any psychological benefit by believing that you are listening to a TrueHD output no one can deny it but then I am reproducing specification of one of the XONAR Card below pay attention to the highlighted portion. Even if your XONAR card is not exactly same you can check it's spec to see if it the TruHD/ DTS MA is for Analog ports

I am also not payed to argue with people on net but your attitude is amazing an there is something which brings me back here.

Please notice below it says HDCP 1.2 also the 192Khz lossless playback is on HDMI and SPDIF and not on analog output , This is not becuase it can not be done but it must not be provided for sake of HDCP 1.2
Specifications

Processor and Interface

Audio processor- ASUS AV200 (Max. 192KHz/24bit)
Bus Compatibility PCI 2.1 specification compatible
HDMI HDMI 1.3a, HDCP1.2, DVI 1.0
Video Specifications
Video Resolution- DTV Resolution: up to 1080p
- PC Resolution: up to UXGA

Color Depth and Range- Up to 48-bit/per pixel color depths (RGB or YCbCr)
- Broader xvYCC color space standard
Audio Sample Rate and Resolution
HDMI1.3 Playback Formats
- 7.1 channel LPCM 192KHz/24bit
- Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD Master Audio bitstreaming

S/PDIF Digital Input and Output 192KHz/24bit

I/O Ports


HDMI Ports - HDMI-Out Type A x 1
- HDMI-In Type A x 1
Digital S/PDIF Coaxial/TOSLINK combo
Front Panel Header - HD Audio and AC97

AUX in Aux-in-4-pin Header
Driver Features - Complete Dolby and DTS technologies
- DS3D GX2.5
- VocalFX
- ASIO2.0

Software Utility- ArcSoft Total Media Theatre
- 7.1-ch Blu-ray movie player[/SIZE]

The following review confirms this
Xonar HDAV1.3 Deluxe: Asus HTPC sound card does Everything | silentpcreview.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
But I will continue to argue with you, if you prove me that the following of your statements are true. (I sill believe I am not paid to correct your BRILLIANT mistakes and I have exams tomorrow)

Somebody please help this guy/sorry this honorable senior, he doesn't know the ABC of Audio.
Listen fellow OMA DRM is not just for ringtones both OMA and WMA DRM ( microsoft) are directed towards preventing unautherized copying and forwarding of content where as HDCP is for preventing playback on rendering devices.

Releases - DRM V 1.0

HDCP

Digital Content Protection

I may not know about audio or I may not even tell a sterio sound from Mono but whatever is provided above is correct. If MR. Bose or Rehman have entered in to busniess of DRM implementation or even reading spec surely many of us will loose our job

About loss less remember it is just compression on storage media . there will be some loss ( may not be perceptible) while digitizing.

Last edited by amitk26 : 7th June 2009 at 01:46. Reason: cleaning quotes
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Old 7th June 2009, 01:40   #214
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This highly technical debate would have been mildly enjoyable if there weren't any egos and ill-manners involved.

I'm going to request IBM_jennifer to watch his tone. Amit, please show some restraint. One doesn't have to get dirty when he's passionate.

By the way I thought Urmila was lovely in Rangeela.

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Old 7th June 2009, 01:47   #215
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Man, just referring to wikipedia and some product manualS doesn't mean that I am a FOOL. But its my duty here to say that What ever you have said is TRUE and i am agreeing to all, because you are my senior (or i will get a infraction).

But for all my Juniors at team-bhp who followed my Car PC thread, here are my points/truth:

1. HDCP is one of the BRILLIANT implementation developed by Intel which was already broken in 2001, but as there is no alternative till now, Sony follows it. HDCP is just another digital implementation of DRM, because no one can implement any analog copy protection here (!).

2. It is impossible, again its IMPOSSIBLE to deliver 24/96 5.1 Audio or 24/192 stereo audio thru a SPDIF Digital connector, because of the bandwidth limit of the BMC algorithm used in SPDIF. (even with a $10000 SPDIF cable, you can't)

3. And its possible to deliver the lossless 24/192 OR 24/96 DTS-MA or True-HD thru HDCP enabled HDMI or thru the Analog output of your Sound Card. Please note that, you can enjoy the full benefit of protected DVD-Audio or Blu-Ray if you have realtek/inbuilt or any low end 24/192 Sound card. But you should not use SPDIF. Again no down sampling happens here unless your card cant handle 24/192. (So if you are using a Digital speaker, I am sorry!)

4. And the cost you are paying for DTS/Dolby is nothing but a royalty and you don't need to pay any COST for any CODEC people unless you are limited by the hardware throughput.

5. And you have no rights to speak about Spectrum/Bitdepth/resolution if you are using a lossy CODEC to compress the Audio.

6. There is no quality difference between an UNCOMPRESSED original LPCM Audio and Audio compressed with MLP/DTS-MA/TrueHD/Flac-8

7. And its IMPOSSIBLE again IMPOSSIBLE to deliver a quality Audio in Digital than 13.8Mbps for 24/96 for 5.1 channels using any Algorithm

8. And Finally the quality of AUDIO in DVD-Audio or Blu-Ray is 10 times greater than the Music in Original CD. Its the THEORY!!! But in practical it depends on your Ears and how you understand about Audio.

And dear honorable Audiophiles/senior members, please we dont expect any respect from you at all, but please learn to respect our Masters atleast. If you dont know who is he: Arun Bose

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Old 7th June 2009, 01:49   #216
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SO, ibm, when will you eventually study for your exam? Looks like you're going to be here all night.
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Old 7th June 2009, 02:05   #217
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How Sam bhai, how! This people won't allowing me to do. Its boring AI exam, but tomorrow afternoon only.
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Old 7th June 2009, 02:13   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Man, just referring to wikipedia and some product manualS doesn't mean that I am a FOOL. But its my duty here to say that What ever you have said is TRUE and i am agreeing to all, because you are my senior (or i will get a infraction).

But for all my Juniors at team-bhp who followed my Car PC thread, here are my points/truth:
1. HDCP is one of the BRILLIANT implementation developed by Intel which was already broken in 2001, but as there is no alternative till now, Sony follows it. HDCP is just another digital implementation of DRM, because no one can implement any analog copy protection here (!).

The broken part applies to key pairs on HDMI output so if one wants to pirate still using a non-compliant renderer and keys available ( total 40) that can be done but still device manufacturers don't provide the same signal on Analog.
A slight correction whoever wants to manufacture consumer devices on which MPAA provided content has to implemet and license it , Samsung , Sony and all others including ASUS has implemented.
Read the spec carefully and ask ASUS Tek if they provide the same signal on analog port after DAC conversion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
2. It is impossible, again its IMPOSSIBLE to deliver 24/96 5.1 Audio or 24/192 stereo audio thru a SPDIF connector, because of the bandwidth limit of the BMC algorithm used in SPDIF. (even with a $10000 SPDIF cable)
Your above statement needs a correction

S/PDIF ( Sony _ Phillps Digital interface) can support at max 2 channels at this rate read the IEC 61937. When I wrote the use of SPDIF and your card's spec it does not mention number of channel on SPDIF.

What I wrote was that due to HDCP restrictions card manufacturers deliver the high defination output only on S/PDIF an HDMI and after scaling down on Analog. The Card spec just says that but it omits to mention what it does not do.
Half truth with reference to SPDIF and Analog ports from consumers point of view but that is what it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

Want to know how
3. And its possible to deliver the lossless 24/192 OR 24/96 DTS-MA or True-HD thru HDCP enabled HDMI or thru the Analog output of your Sound Card. Please note that, you can enjoy the full benefit of protected DVD-Audio or Blu-Ray if you have realtek or any low end 24/192 Sound card. But you should not use SPDIF. Again no down sampling happens here unless your card cant handle 24/192.
analog part is technically not correct for this equipment or any other card as of today.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

4. And the cost you are paying for DTS/Dolby is nothing but a royalty and you don't need to pay any COST for any CODEC people unless you are limited by the hardware throughput.
Royalty is nothing but the cost of codec , There are two kinds of monitizing of embedded software one time license and subsequent royalty per peace.

Also if you are limited by hardware throughput nothing on codec part can overcome if decoded data exceeds the limit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

And dear honorable Audiophiles/senior members, please we dont expect any respect from you at all, but please learn to respect our Masters atleast. If you dont know who is he: Arun Bose
No disrespect to Arun Bose whoever he is but surely he is not the one who invenets either Algorithms or write DRM / Codec spec or implementation.
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Old 7th June 2009, 02:41   #219
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Quote:
Also if you are limited by hardware throughput nothing on codec part can overcome if decoded data exceeds the limit.
Are you a Mad? may I know the reason why people are using MLP in DVD-Audio? Why do you need to decode in the CD/DVD? How do you define the limit of Decoding? First can you please explain me what is throughput?

Quote:
Royalty is nothing but the cost of codec
Have you paid any cost for FLAC? Do you think Flac is a stupid/lossy codec? Can you please explain me the advantage of DTS-MA and TrueHD over Flac?

Quote:
analog part is technically not correct for this equipment or any other card as of today.
May I know then how do you listen to digital Audio? Have you met any person who can listen digital video? ANALOG is the real man, Digital is a myth.

Man, XONAR HDAV achieves Uncompressed 24/192 output by BITSTREAMing thru a special player developed by the people who breaked the HDCP. (The movie industry is already in discussion with CMEDIA regarding this) But that doesn't mean, that you can directly hear to 192Khz audio without any digital receiver. You need to DECODE it somewhere which is not easy in a car.

Quote:
It is impossible, again its IMPOSSIBLE to deliver 24/96 5.1 Audio or 24/192 stereo audio thru a SPDIF Digital connector, because of the bandwidth limit of the BMC algorithm used in SPDIF. (even with a $10000 SPDIF cable, you can't)
I AGREE THAT My above statement is wrong. Its now possible with bitstreaming(means without using the olden days BMC) thru a Xonar HDAV card. But it wont work unless you have a separate digital receiver. And It has zero advantage than the analog out. Actually it has disadvantages as the characterists of you rDigital reciever affects the quality of Audio. (unless you are using a $1000 digitla reciever)

And this digital receiver just convert the digital sound to analog. So again you need a 24/192 DAC converter.

I DONT FIND ANY VALID REASON to INVEST A DIGITAL RECEIVER if you already have a XONAR ZDAV which can convert your audio from 24/192 digital to analog. (But if you already have Speakers, then you can buy a XDAV. But I dont hear about digital speakers in car!!!)

Can you please list me the advantages of using SPDIF cable over the analog audio cable?

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Old 7th June 2009, 02:56   #220
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And dear senior,

Please dont waste my time unless you have the GUTS to prove that the following statements are TRUE:

Quote:
Encoding algorithm is exactly what justifies the cost the codec vendors ask for. Quote:
Any Audio encoding is alwyas lossy at the same sampling freq the compression algorithms decide how faithful audio reproduction is going to be.
Quote:
there is no great difference to normal human ear.
Quote:
ALL AV compression algorithms are lossy
Quote:
DRM generally refers to OMA DRM or WMA DRM
Quote:
Dolby TrueHD ( minimal loss)
Quote:
PC component vendors have to scale it down to DVD-Audio quality while outputting to Analog outputs for being HDCP compliant
Quote:
true music of 192Khz 24bits per sample you need either an HDMI or S/PDIF connector
Quote:
Dolby TrueHD ( again 192 Khz 24 bit Sample 5.1 with less lossy algorithm)
Quote:
Dolby TrueHD is scaled down in analog format to DVD-Audio quality as per HDCP compliance requirement.
Quote:
until you replace your JBL 75.4 with an amplifier with either S/PDIF ( limited to 5.1) or an HDMI interface you will never ever hear any actual Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA output be it 5000$ or 50000$
Man, just proving one of my statement as WRONG (The statement was actually correct, but it was BROKEN and no longer VALID) doesn't mean that what ever you said is true.

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Old 7th June 2009, 03:29   #221
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Again my dear Honorable senior member, please avoid using my statements as an answer for my questions/quote. I have found you are trying to use the following of my statements without any quote. (I believe its just a mistake and please take some time to correct them before posting.)

Quote:
Again my dear senior, there is no LOSSY algorithm implemented in the world on any of the DVD-Audio or Blu-Ray at 192Khz. (Yes, if you hear the lossy audio in a DVD-R or Blu-Ray, its not the master audio - its the substitute in DD/DTS which is actually bad quality than your CDs - Its for poor people those dont have a 96/192Khz card).

Also dear honorable, its impossible to deliver a 5.1 channel audio in 192/24 because of the throughput limitation of the Discs. May i know the name of the sound engineer who delivered you a brilliant 24/192/5.1 audio using a lossy format? Is it MP3/AAC/DTS/DD?

1. HDCP is one of the BRILLIANT implementation developed by Intel which was already broken in 2001, but as there is no alternative till now, Sony follows it. HDCP is just another digital implementation of DRM, because no one can implement any analog copy protection here (!).
As I am leaving now to sleep, if possible please take some time to prove the following of your statements too (once you completed answering my question at post 219, then after proving 220):

Quote:
and after scaling down on Analog
Quote:
analog part is technically not correct for this equipment or any other card as of today.
Quote:
if you are limited by hardware throughput nothing on codec part can overcome if decoded data exceeds the limit.
Also please don't push around. Just take your own time, because I know you have some good talent.

But leave it all if you think me a Fool (or as per the rule, if seniors may not need to answer to juniors in team-bhp), But please answer: WHERE FROM YOU LEARNED "DTS-MA or TRUEHD scaled down (means downsample) in ANALOG OUTPUT"?

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 7th June 2009 at 03:43.
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Old 7th June 2009, 03:34   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Are you a Mad? may I know the reason why people are using MLP in DVD-Audio? Why do you need to decode in the CD/DVD? How do you define the limit of Decoding? First can you please explain me what is throughput?
I am not mad but you surely have some problem in reading comprehension.
Listen again if the decoded data exceeds the available bandwidth nothing in codec can help you to transport the decoded data and that is why you can transport only 2 CH over SPDIF link, Is this not obvious ? What MLP has do with this once you decoe MLP is out of picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Have you paid any cost for FLAC? Do you think Flac is a stupid/lossy codec? Can you please explain me the advantage of DTS-MA and TrueHD over Flac?
FLAC is open source implementation and creator of FLAC decided not to levy any royalty or fee. Unlike MP3 ( Implementation is free but patent lincese fee is charged by Fraunhaffer instute).
I am not in position to justify the DTS-MA and TryeHD costs but they are propriety implemenations ,People do license propriety licensed technology for many reasons sometimes it is support , sometimes it is better output.
but surely Dolby and DTS are able to convince thier customers due to some reason.

Something similar to Linux vs windows


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
May I know then how do you listen to digital Audio? Have you met any person who can listen digital video? ANALOG is the real man, Digital is a myth.

Man, XONAR HDAV achieves Uncompressed 24/192 output by BITSTREAMing thru a special player developed by the people who breaked the HDCP. But that doesn't mean, that you can directly hear to 192Khz audio without any digital receiver. You need to DECODE it somewhere, or its not bearable.

My above statement is wrong. Its now possible with bitstreaming(means without using the olden days BMC) thru a Xonar HDAV card. But it wont work unless you have a separate digital receiver. And It has zero advantage than the analog out.
What BMC has to do with this ? BMC represents the bits but data depends on framestructure of protocol. Also it is still BMC what has changed is connectors but that just changes electrical parameters not data carrying capacity.

No one listens to digital isn't is obvious ?

Now you said something about bitstreaming on analog and breaking HDCP which is beyond my understanding.

I hope you understand what bitstreaming is ? So please care to tell what that special bitstreaming software is whcih can break HDCP and provide output on Analog ?

Well you are partially right that one can break HDCP but that is using digital interface not analog.

After decoding if you get the the raw bitstram somewhere it needs to be converted to analog and in any PCB that point is DAC

Your information is halfbaked breaking the HDCP using bitstraming has entierly different meaning. Actually what HDCP does is that it allows the decoding on the PC side and then the digitised output is provided to the digital port ( either HDMI or S/PDIF for audio) and HDMI or DVI for Video.

Now as per HDCP before the renderer ( amplifier / monitor) receives this data it has to be authenticated using a pair of keys one public and one private this is very similar to AKAv1 algorithm which is used in SIP and some other usecases . The problem was that out of original 40 private key which were released to device manufacturers most leaked but that problem can be fixed as these keys are modifiable actually by firmware upgrade.


So as of today one can handshake and authenticate with HDCP compliant device and then receive bitstream. MPAA as of now does not care becuase there is no real content but the Keys can be updated ( by firmware update)
So whenever the mass content will be released they hope to provide update and protect but current focus is to have devices in mass market.

But there is no way one can bitstream some thing on the analog port becuase the port on which bitstreams are sent is known as Digital port.

Hope this helps.

Now one more thing breaking Video is always easier becuase for video you can rip and store it on the disk and play using DVI interface. DVI is not protected as it was released for moniters much before HDMI.

Also if you are transcoding the ripped BlueRay Video still you can play over analog link. For Audio equivelent of this would be transcoding to some other format and playing back but then becuase your decoding and ADC is on the card it becomes difficult ( else you would not have purchased the Sound card at all)

Last edited by amitk26 : 7th June 2009 at 03:36.
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Old 7th June 2009, 03:46   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Again my dear Honorable senior member, please avoid using my statements as an answer for my questions/quote. I have found you are trying to use the following of my statements without any quote. (I believe its just a mistake and please take some time to correct them before posting.)




As I am leaving now to sleep, if possible please take some time to prove the following of your statements too (once you completed answering my question at post 219, then after proving 220):

Also please don't push around. Just take your own time, because I know you have some good talent.
Listen dude first you read my response and provide some logical answer what you mean by using bitstreaming to break HDCP to get the exact decoded output on Analog.
What is this special bitstream player you have ?
Read my explanation carefully in other post , What you can break is handshake for getting bitstream on HDMI or S/PDIF or any other digital port but nothing for bypassing DAC on your sound card .

If you realy have this special software to bitstream on analog port it is nothing but snake oil. If you have some method to prove it is not then congratulations you have invented a modulation technique to modulate digital data (bitstream) on Analog outpit but still it remains to be explained how your JBL Amp is converting this bitstream to Audio .. Ha Ha Ha

So it is obvious you are listning to scaled down audio and are quite happy beliving it to be exact output of 192 Khz 24 bit sample and this proves that your ears can not make any diff between scaled down and exact and it is a good replica and my statement is proved.

OK you may be a good sound mixer / artist but simply you need to understand the internal working and differences in how interconversion works. On other hand I do not have any kind of understanding of what people mean by tight bass or headroom and other such things
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Old 7th June 2009, 03:57   #224
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Listen again if the decoded data exceeds the available bandwidth nothing in codec can help you to transport the decoded data and that is why you can transport only 2 CH over SPDIF link, Is this not obvious ? What MLP has do with this once you decoe MLP is out of picture
Man, please dont push around. Please explain me the necessity of MLP in DVD-Audio? Please, I beg you please do a google search first.

You don't know whats decoding and someone thought you that DIGITAL output is better than Analog output and youa re just catching the point. Do you believe, its TRUE?

First you should know why we are using CODECs like MLP/DTS-MA when we have pure uncompressed LPCM. (Dont say me its to reduce the size(we have Flac to reduce the size), Please ask the audiophiles in team-bhp at least!)

And you should know the limitation of this decoding(And I never heard about DECODING LIMITATION in my life before!) wont apply when you are using analog output of the DECODER. Who the hell asked you to use a SPDIF digital audio out in car? Can you please explain me about DECODING LIMITATION other than this SPDIF or will it only apply to SPDIF?

Quote:
But there is no way one can bitstream some thing on the analog port becuase the port on which bitstreams are sent is known as Digital port.
Oh God, Can you please quote me where I said about bit streaming in analog? Are you reading my posts or not?

Quote:
What BMC has to do with this ?
Fine, BMC is the algorithm accepted for SPDIF by Sony, but Asus violates to follow itS spec to overcome the limitation of DRM. BMC must carry a clock signal along with the data signal, so that its impossible to deliver the 24/96 audio for 5.1 channel using SPDIF. But I agree that, its no longer valid and ASUS break this theory by removing the clock signal.

Quote:
ow one more thing breaking Video is always easier becuase for video you can rip and store it on the disk and play using DVI interface. DVI is not protected as it was released for moniters much before HDMI.

Also if you are transcoding the ripped BlueRay Video still you can play over analog link. For Audio equivelent of this would be transcoding to some other format and playing back but then becuase your decoding and ADC is on the card it becomes difficult ( else you would not have purchased the Sound card at all)
Man, Again please dont push around. Who the hell asked you about VIDEO. If you dont know to answer me please keep quite. I AGREE THAT you KNOW BETTER THAN me. Please.

Quote:
So it is obvious you are listning to scaled down audio and are quite happy beliving it to be exact output of 192 Khz 24 bit sample and this proves that your ears can not make any diff between scaled down and exact and it is a good replica and my statement is proved.
man, I AGREE THAT ALL YOUR STATEMENTS are True and All my statements are WRONG.

What's Navin/Sam/Dealtre comments now?

And finally I BEG you for the 3rd time, please asnwer my question:

WHERE FROM YOU LEARNED "DTS-MA or TRUEHD scaled down (means downsample) in ANALOG OUTPUT"?

Last edited by ibm_jennifer : 7th June 2009 at 04:15.
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Old 7th June 2009, 04:30   #225
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Hey dude you need some serious update on your knowledge about which you are so sure , I am really enjoying this now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Man, please dont push around. Please explain me the necessity of MLP in DVD-Audio? Please, I beg you please do a google search first.

Listen MLP is compression when you decode what you get is uncompressed bitstream ( Digital output in bits) at the same rate it was sampled from original analog now this digital data needs to be converted to analog and a TI or Bur Brown DAC does it on PC Soundcard for analog output.

For digital output (using some interface such as HDMI or S/PDIF) there can be two ways
(1) Your PC/ Blueray player does Decoding of TrueHD/DTA MA and provide
uncompressed bitstream (still digital) per HDMI or S/PDIF protocol now if you have a digital receiver/amplifier with HDMI it will decode and convert to Analog.
The Amp here just receives the decoded bitstream and converts to analog but does not have TrueHD ( MLP ) or DTS MA decoding algorithm implementation
Most of the low end Amps with HDMI just do this

In this example MLP compressed data does not go over the digital interface

(2) Another way is that you are using a digital AV reciver with TrueHD / DTS MA decoding capacity Highend Yamaha ( Z11 ) , Onkyo , Danon digital receivers have this capability . In this case the HDMI connector on Amp will receive the MLP data and decode and convert to analog.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
You don't know whats decoding and someone thought you that DIGITAL output is better than Analog output. Do you think, its TRUE?
What do you think of yourself , Becuase sound card manufacturer is scaling down as per thier own spec it is not better. Any way Why don't you clear your basics on what kind of data goes over Digital interface first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post

Fine, BMC is the algorithm accepted for SPDIF by Sony, but Asus violates to follow it thru SPDIF to overcome the limitatation of DRM. BMC must carry a clock signal along with the data signal, so that its impossible to deliver the 24/96 audio for 5.1 channel using SPDIF. But I agree that, its no longer valid and ASUS breaked this theory by removing the clock signal.

man, I AGREE THAT ALL YOUR STATENTS are True and All my statements are WRONG.

What's Navin/Sam/Dealtre comments now?
Who told you BMC is an algorithm ? It is representation of bits ,using 2 pulses actually for each bit to derrive clock.
why dont you search in google and read about it

Well no one remembers any protocol off the hat specially if the job involves reading dozens of protocola so I have digged up following info for you.

And the 2 192Khz Channel on SPDIF is possible with any manufacturer not just Asus. For sending 24 bits 4 extra bits which are normally set to 0 are used and also in control word bit for number of channels is not set ( meaning 2 channel) the subframesize as per protocol is 192 bits.

So please be aware ASUS is just following the standard otherwise you can not use S/PDIF with any Amp.

Still you are to explain what is that bitstraming on analog that can break HDCP content protection
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