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Old 26th June 2007, 10:22   #61
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I haven't researched valves much, thinking they are outdated technology with a lots of THD/IM and other disadvantages. I know however that certain harmonic distortions can actually make the original sound "sweeter" or more "musical" (have heard samples over net with exaggerated effects!). Many people say that the patterns of harmonic distortion generated by valves can actually appeal to valve lovers, due to this reason. In other words, they have developed and carried over weired tastes since valve days.
Nicely put, Santosh! THD/IM and "wierd tastes" apart, that miniscule minority still swears by it, because they find the semiconductor-amplified sound unpalatable (kind of French haute cuisine v/s Bangalore biriyani). If you can find a musical instruments shop that has it, compare the sounds of guitar amps made with valves v/s the more common silicon amps, you will immediately know the difference. (Les Paul / Chet Atkins / Mark Knopfler v/s today's rock guitar sound)

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Just curious, what is iron here? (transformers?)
Yes, the material for the stampings of the trafo was quite critical and a matter of a lot of leg-work (no internet in those days, you see). DIY meant a lot of skillful handwork too, apart from bigger soldering irons and antibiotic shots of 230V
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Old 26th June 2007, 10:34   #62
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A small addition regarding the last statement about converting FR to impulse response- it is valid for linear systems. I have no idea about how it is done in non-linear systems, if at all possible!
Frequency domain. Laplace and Fourier Transforms. Control Theory (PID control - theory part). Enjai maadi!
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Old 26th June 2007, 10:37   #63
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Frequency domain. Laplace and Fourier Transforms. Control Theory (PID control - theory part). Enjai maadi!
Someone should invite Sam and B&T to this party! I am so excited.
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Old 26th June 2007, 10:39   #64
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(Les Paul / Chet Atkins / Mark Knopfler v/s today's rock guitar sound)
you know Atkins and Knopler actually made a record or maybe two together. I have one.
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Old 26th June 2007, 10:41   #65
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To bring this topic back to earth, I did put JBL GTO606 components in the front with Blaupunkt coaxials in the rear (OE locations).

No amp, no sub. Sound is pretty darn good to my ears. I rarely listen to music loud. One evening Sam jumps in my car with some rubbish hindi songs which my wife loves. He fiddled with the settings for a few seconds and then pumped up the volume. I was impressed! Not with the music, but the the sound. Hell, I could have sworn Sam was a bit surprised as well as he didn't expect it to sound as good as it did.

So you don't need an amp to get decent sound!
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Old 26th June 2007, 10:44   #66
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LBM, talking about just a maximally flat frequency response does not divluge the full picture. Impluse response, decay etc. are also to be considered.
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Yes, LBM. Maximally flat FR is far from "the" qualifying factor for SQ. It is of course necessary but not at all sufficient. A very flat system can actually have significant non-linear distortion in it which is a different story. First of all, to be technically precise, FR constitutes of both amplitude response and phase response together (Most of the time only amplitude is considered). With a complete FR, it is theoretically possible to get impulse response, decay time etc (and the other way round).
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A small addition regarding the last statement about converting FR to impulse response- it is valid for linear systems. I have no idea about how it is done in non-linear systems, if at all possible!

Ya I total agree the FR is not just the criteria to judge how the speaker will sound , it might be look good on paper and in theory but the practical will be something very bad or unmusical. Now what is a perfect speaker , how will it sound , whether it is put in a well damped room, living room, bedroom, or even a toilet. it will sound very different in every location, here comes the other factor...so which one to choose from confusion and confusion.

Also there is not a single driver in this world which can produce all the freq for low as 20 Hz to 20000 Hz. for this we have to use different drivers like the sub , midbass , midrange , tweeter. now more the drivers more the noise in the system more channels ,more the response time is added because of different type of driver are used. so many variables. so the bottom line is.

Are you satisfied by the sound.

there may be people who will be happy in a sony setup , but there are many who are still not satisfied by DLS speaker, STEG amps and they want more.
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Old 26th June 2007, 10:51   #67
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One evening Sam jumps in my car with some rubbish hindi songs which my wife loves.

So you don't need an amp to get decent sound!

Is the car ok ???

And yes amp helps a lot in improving the sound if compared to the HU amp.
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Old 26th June 2007, 10:57   #68
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To bring this topic back to earth, I did put JBL GTO606 components in the front with Blaupunkt coaxials in the rear (OE locations).

No amp, no sub. Sound is pretty darn good to my ears. I rarely listen to music loud. One evening Sam jumps in my car with some rubbish hindi songs which my wife loves. He fiddled with the settings for a few seconds and then pumped up the volume. I was impressed! Not with the music, but the the sound. Hell, I could have sworn Sam was a bit surprised as well as he didn't expect it to sound as good as it did.

So you don't need an amp to get decent sound!
What HU do you have? Which Blau coaxials?
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Old 26th June 2007, 11:07   #69
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Originally Posted by LBM
Is the car ok ???
lol! Yea...the driveshafts are still intact ; )

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Originally Posted by DerAlte
What HU do you have? Which Blau coaxials?
It's a 4 year old Pioneer. Don't ask me model numbers! It plays mp3's and, although some may disagree, gives a decent output. However that said, I think it's beginning to act up these days.

Again, I don't know which model the Blau's were. But they are slim, nicely finished and give the boot a neat, OE look from behind as well.
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Old 26th June 2007, 11:24   #70
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Rtech, you really ought to visit LBM and take a ride in the rear seat of his swift.
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Old 26th June 2007, 11:26   #71
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Rtech, you really ought to visit LBM and take a ride in the rear seat of his swift.
then he will never put amp in his car.
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Old 26th June 2007, 13:55   #72
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Rtech, you really ought to visit LBM and take a ride in the rear seat of his swift.
just to add....with the child lock "ON"!!
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Old 26th June 2007, 14:49   #73
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just to add....with the child lock "ON"!!
that is a compulsory thing when who is getting demo of my ICE.
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Old 26th June 2007, 19:58   #74
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there may be people who will be happy in a sony setup , but there are many who are still not satisfied by DLS speaker, STEG amps and they want more.
any plans to upgrade again?
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Old 26th June 2007, 20:57   #75
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
If you can find a musical instruments shop that has it, compare the sounds of guitar amps made with valves v/s the more common silicon amps, you will immediately know the difference.
Yeah, in guitar amps distortion is actually an important ingredient (those who heard it for the first time may be surprised, but that is true). They are optimized to generate particular flavors of distortions. Recently DSP has invaded them too, and you have amps where the kind of distortion you want is digitally programmable!


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(no internet in those days, you see).
Can imagine how different it might have been

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Frequency domain. Laplace and Fourier Transforms. Control Theory (PID control - theory part). Enjai maadi!
If one really wants to go to the roots, all roads invariably lead to these things only....no other option!!

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Someone should invite Sam and B&T to this party! I am so excited.
They must be smiling at things cooking here!

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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
so the bottom line is.

Are you satisfied by the sound.

there may be people who will be happy in a sony setup , but there are many who are still not satisfied by DLS speaker, STEG amps and they want more.
Yes, I am! And it may be entertaining to know what my high-end systems are

1. I don't even have sony! I have a very ordinary dual-cassette deck with analog FM tuner and line-in. The model is BPL duet 120 (BPL can double here as "Below Poverty Line" by audiophile standards!). It was bought for Rs. 4.4K some 8 years back. Analog tuner was OK when there was just one channel (radio city), now with 10 channels it is a non-sense. It has decent bass reflex speakers with whizzers and piezo tweeters, and I thought it surpassed Sony, Phillips and others, as they say in "it's" class! Others in its poor price range were mostly single driver systems. But it is almost unused these days, and so is the cassette collection. Didn't go for system with CD drive at that time due to added cost, and more due to the cost of CDs themselves!

BPL seems to have almost disappeared from the scene, but I heard they have gone high-end (in real sense) with a different name in collaboration with Denon.

2. CyberHome DVD player, bought for about Rs 1.7K (from US) mostly used to play DVDs, though it can play ACDs & mp3s. Usually doesn't crib for any CDs. Also, region code has been broken to make it region-free.

3. Panasonic 21" flat CRT TV for Rs. 25K. It is relatively costly because flat CRTs were hot cakes when I bought it. In spite of being the costliest A/V gadget I own, it is the most troublesome! It has a few nasty bugs!! I had to learn how to enter "service" mode on remote from a service guy so that I can restore it on my own, whenever it chooses its own mind. A few years later I bought another similar LG for half the cost, without any bugs!.

4. Rs. 0.5K "PC" 2.1 speaker system with wooden (oops... MDF) "sub!" connected to the TV. This is just to fill the hall which is too big for the TV alone (20'x20') and to add some "bass" so as to make it at least listenable. Connection is taken from the headphone jack (for auto volume leveler to take effect) and the connector is filed from one side so as not to disconnect builtin TV speakers (DIY, you see!)

5. Rs. 1.1K philips stereo wireless headphones bought from Germany. A friend bought it for me at 50% employee discount. Noise level is not at all good, listenable when transmitter and receiver are on the same floor.

6. Rs. 2.2K Aiwa walkman cum recorder with digital radio tuner. This is unused too, was bought mainly for my music classes (recording purpose).

7. A set of 4-5 chinese headphones sold with various names, mostly Frontech. They have 4cm drivers which produce decent sound along with good bass and sensitivity. At Rs. 200-250/- I thought they were too cheap, so bought in bulk, 1 for office, 1 for home, 1 to replace original drivers in the cordless headphone and so on. Yes, I took out drivers from one of the headphones and put them into the wireless phone. It was very rewarding little DIY, I must say!

8. A PC with original Intel motherboard with so called "Intel high definition audio" which has 7.1 channel and s/pdif capability (it is from Realtek). It also has a Pinnacle TV and stereo FM radio tuner card. FM antenna used is external one, mounted on roof. I think my PC has the best fidelity among what I posses as of now! And ever since I came across SRS audio sanbox software, it is enabled by default. Especially I like it's TruBass feature which significantly improves bass (amount as well as quality). Another favorite is dolby headphones (used through PowerDVD), that too adds another dimension to headphone listening. I mostly listen to FM stations or other music from the hard-disk all the time.

That said, my apartment is equipped with in wall concealed ducts, enough to wire a 9.1 system with any guage, plus another connection to master bedroom. But it is hopelessly begging to be put to some use... and God knows when that will happen
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