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Old 28th July 2009, 18:11   #1
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Default improve front speaker performance on M800

Hi,

I have the following setup now in my 5 speed Maruti 800.

HU: Pioneer 3050
Front speakers: JBL 4inch 2 way coaxials in the dash, stock location
Rear speakers: JBL GT5 6x9 on custom enclosures.

The rear speakers are loud, but the front ones are really tinny. When driving above 80-90 Kmph I can hardly hear the front speakers or for that matter music itself (just the engine note), even with the volume around 35-40. And people in the rear complain of too loud music.

Even after fading to the front, i can hardly go over volume 30, as the front speakers sound bad and start to vibrate. I have no separate front and rear high pass filters in the HU, so if I raise the HPF to 100 or above. I loose all the midbass from the rear 6x9s as well.

So what are the options I have, in tuning for better front speaker performance, and maybe upgrades at moderate cost if possible.

Also, thoughts on, what difference it will make to SQ if I move the rear coaxials 6x9 to the rear hatch to free up some space.

I have seen a few threads about, front components, with amps and under seat subwoofers, which are a couple of years old. So are there any new advancements in space saving SQ setups since then.

I have also seen some low profile subwoofes (Earthquake SWS series, Pioneer low profiles) mounted in the front seats itself, in lieu of under the seat, attached to an enclosure. Is it a possible option to improve the front mid bass (not the sub bass )


My priorities are like this,

1. Free up more space for luggage by moving 6x9 to rear hatch
2. Improve front stage and front midbass

Thanks in advance.
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Old 28th July 2009, 18:54   #2
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@ ram, can you post some pics of the total installation please? A good set of components will do the job for front listening. You can remove the rear speakers, if they are too loud for the passengers or install them on hatch door (you need to install them on an mdf board) . Also for bass, an 8 inch woofer in the boot will do the job with less space required.
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Old 28th July 2009, 19:27   #3
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Yes, you could move the ovals to the rear hatch and discard the enclosures. Search - there are some installs by @blueraven316 in a WagonR rear quarter glass area.

The front is more of a problem. First, try tuning it yourself using the Fader - somewhere around F3 or F4 you will get equal loudness (ignore bass for the time being). Now if you raise the volume and check in the rear seat.

Low profile subs are not a wise investment. You have to first think of using 6.5" components in front, but that will need door pad modification. Again, search - there is a very good M800 install thread in the Sound Off Show Off section.

Last edited by DerAlte : 28th July 2009 at 19:30.
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Old 29th July 2009, 14:54   #4
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I was looking at something of this sort for the bass part.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-g...tml#post572959

As suggested, for the front stage, with as much fading, the front jbl 4s sound so harsh.
One option could be to use passive crossover to highpass the front speakers to say 100 hz or above, and leave the hpf on HU to off. Any suggestions on the specifications for doing the same? And is it a DIY job? I see it needs a capacitor of certain spec, that needs to be hooked to the speakers in parallel, thats all.

In case I am replacing the front speakers, what kind of sound signature I can expect with 4 inch components in place of coaxials. I am looking for warm mids and decent midbass. The mids in general are too harsh right now, when the volume is high. Any components that suit this signature? I guess, illusions might be a good bet, any other component speakers that have a similar sound?

I find that the front components on my other Swift(JBL GT5s), sound so tinny(zero midbass, lows) compared to the rear 6 inch JBL coaxials. The fronts driven by GT5604 amp either in HPF around 80hz or even direct passthru mode and rears driven by the HU. so I am also apprehensive about going the 5/6 inch component way.

If this does not work out well, maybe i will go for the 5 /6 inch components but I generally dont like the speakers on doors jetting out with oversized spacers. When doing install for a friend of mine at blueravens, I saw a similar setup in a maruti van, and even the owner asked that to be removed, as it is quite intrusive. Hence I am against the idea of 5/6 inchers.


Also, if I go for a 8 inch sub, can it be used with pioneer direct drive by removing the rear speakers, at least for the time being? I guess it gives 70Watts or so RMS on sub mode. Has anyone tried the directdrive option for subwoofer, without an amplifier? Inputs on that will be helpful too.

Last edited by ramkris : 29th July 2009 at 14:56.
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Old 29th July 2009, 22:22   #5
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The harshness is due to the 'brightness' (too much of highs) of the 4" speakers. This is quite different from the 'tinnyness' (lack of bass) of the GT5 components.

4" components may not improve the situation (hardly any bass), but definitely a different brand/model may be less bright / harsh.

To reduce the brightness, you will need to either add a resistor in series with the existing capacitor of the 4" coax, or dip the treble from the HU. Adding a capacitor in parallel (effectively increasing the cap value) will send more of mids to the tweeter of the coax, but will not reduce the highs going to it.

Zero bass from GT5 components? That is strange. Could you check if they wired correctly (phase)?

The alternative to door pad mounting is jugaad under the dash with a large enough baffle, or 'kick panel' mounting. If you are familiar with Satya, maybe you could brainstorm with him about the alternatives.

8" under-seat sub is definitely a good idea. Pio sub-drive will give a little perceivable bass but 70W doesn't inspire confidence. Also, 4" coupled with the sub may leave a hole in the response unless you LP the sub rather high at 120Hz or so.
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Old 30th July 2009, 10:56   #6
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1. GT5 series is definitely less bright than GTO series and many other speakers (Polk db, Hertz, etc..).

2. 4" components may or may not be brighter than 4" coax speakers. However the advantage components may give you is that since they have an external crossover you can change the XO components to make it less bright. For doing this I would suggest you first understand the nature (and specifications) of the drivers (woofer and tweeter) used in the component system.

3. Much of the harshness we hear is due to a bump in the response between 2K and 5K. Using software like LspCad/Calsod one can tailor a XO which has a slight recess in this region. The recess should be of the order of 0.5-1db. Anymore than that and the speaker will sound too laid back. One note of caution no known speaker design software works with Vista Ultimate (64bit). Most are DOS/Win 98 based.
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Old 30th July 2009, 15:58   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
... One note of caution no known speaker design software works with Vista Ultimate (64bit). Most are DOS/Win 98 based.
Navin, sign of times! Everyone wants out of the box performance today, no one wants to experiment - unlike old fogeys like us from the DOS days.
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Old 30th July 2009, 16:01   #8
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DA,
I upgrded my PC to a Vista Ultimate machine some 2 years ago and today when a friend asked me to do a design for him I realised that all my software wont work anymore. Now I need to find an old PC to install everything on.
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Old 30th July 2009, 16:29   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
DA,
I upgrded my PC to a Vista Ultimate machine some 2 years ago and today when a friend asked me to do a design for him I realised that all my software wont work anymore. Now I need to find an old PC to install everything on.
Did you try running them in compatibility mode ? (right click on the executable and select "Properties" and then select options from the second tab)
Several old (Win 95/98) applications have worked on vista when I tried that.

Now back to the M800 - I was wondering if it would be possible to dismantle the dashboard and fit custom designed MDF/ Fiberglass boxes for 5 inch components(on either side). There is a fair amount of space under there and I don't want to try the door install because I don't like the idea of having protruding spacer rings.
  • What kind of volume would the boxes need to be (over and above the physical dimensions of the driver) for the typical 5 inch driver? I'm worried about ending up with an incorrect size that would affect the midbass. Is the shape of the enclosure also a factor (given that the volume is correct) ?
  • How would the SQ be with the drivers pointed to the floor of the car and the tweeters mounted at the A pillar ?
Dismantling the dash and working with MDF is something that I've done before so I'm not overly concerned about those aspects.

Please help me explore the feasibility of doing this.

Last edited by CrackedHead : 30th July 2009 at 16:38.
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Old 31st July 2009, 11:31   #10
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You really don't need boxes - Infinite Baffle mounting is good enough. You won't need to dismantle the dash either for that, a sheet covering the underside of the dash can hold the speakers.

In a Santro, the speakers are at knee level (IB mounted 4" coaxes pointed at the knees) - and that produces a decent high image (SQ is related to quality of the speaker and electronics). With 5.25" coaxes pointed down, the image might suffer a bit because the highs would be reflected from the floor and get attenuated. If one uses components and mounts the tweeters on A-pillar or mirror pod, the image is likely to be better - as much as with conventional component mounting (mid-bass on door).

Another possibility is using the area between the bottom of the dash and the gear stick. Tweeters as above. Single box housing 2 mid-bass, one facing pedals on one side, the other facing passenger foot-well.
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Old 31st July 2009, 13:04   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
You really don't need boxes - Infinite Baffle mounting is good enough. You won't need to dismantle the dash either for that, a sheet covering the underside of the dash can hold the speakers.
Thanks - In that case, I'm definitely trying this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Another possibility is using the area between the bottom of the dash and the gear stick. Tweeters as above. Single box housing 2 mid-bass, one facing pedals on one side, the other facing passenger foot-well.
I remember someone starting a thread about this kind of placement - the consensus back then was that it would sound wierd.
Also - people might kick in the grills on the drivers when they stretch their legs.
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Old 31st July 2009, 17:50   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackedHead View Post
Thanks - In that case, I'm definitely trying this.



I remember someone starting a thread about this kind of placement - the consensus back then was that it would sound wierd.
Also - people might kick in the grills on the drivers when they stretch their legs.
So I've got some company, in improving the front stage on Maruti 800

Let see how it goes on both our ends and share the results as well.

@DerAlte; I will be checking the phase on the GT5 in the swift and see how it helps. I keep alternating between the M800 and swift which is at my native right now. So I need to do this later only. Anyway, thanks for your suggestions on that.

Last edited by ramkris : 31st July 2009 at 17:56.
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Old 31st July 2009, 18:45   #13
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Quote:
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... I remember someone starting a thread about this kind of placement - the consensus back then was that it would sound wierd. Also - people might kick in the grills on the drivers when they stretch their legs.
Weird? Not! It is non-intuitive to visualize, but the end-effect is unlikely to be weird or spooky. For weird / spooky, one should listen to rear-only setups at the front seats.

Simple solution to the kick problem: angle the speakers in towards the foot-well, instead of pointing towards driver or side.
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Old 31st July 2009, 20:53   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramkris View Post
So I've got some company, in improving the front stage on Maruti 800

Let see how it goes on both our ends and share the results as well.
Yup, but I'm trying to fix most of the rattles and damp the rear hatch before I actually get started. When and where are you planning to get them installed ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Weird? Not! It is non-intuitive to visualize, but the end-effect is unlikely to be weird or spooky. For weird / spooky, one should listen to rear-only setups at the front seats.
Simple solution to the kick problem: angle the speakers in towards the foot-well, instead of pointing towards driver or side.
I suppose that an audition (with the speakers held in hand) is in order. Thanks again.
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Old 31st July 2009, 23:19   #15
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Friends - I have the same query as the title of this thread but for the my car which is an Esteem. I have stock Kenwood speakers on my car and the front speakers (small ones inside the dashboard) hardly add any value to their presence. I am not interested in altering the front door pads to mount a speaker there but would like to know if there is better speaker that can go in the place of the existing ones.
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