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Old 14th January 2007, 20:59   #5131
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@sh@rpshooter: Since you are coming 'back' it would be damn easy to source some components from there itself. For off shelf, check crutchfield.com or then try other online sources. You always get some great deals on eBay if you spend some time to do the research. Crutchfield is the safest.

Having said that, can we now work backwards on your budget? 15k = $350. Lets see:

Infinity Reference 9613i = $99
Infinity Reference 6012i = $75 (6010 components = $150)
Alpine/Blaupunkt HU = $80-180

If you push that to $500-600, the gurus here are going to rub their hands and suggest stuff that will make you REALLY happy

<OT>
If you ever ogled at the Subaru Outback while you were there, take a look at the FIAT Adventure before you decide on the car. But we'll discuss that in the What Car section.
</OT>
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Old 14th January 2007, 21:14   #5132
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vid6639, thanks a lot.

I think I understand the 4 speaker theory, will take me more time to digest it though... i am not fixed on the budget, just want to keep a sensible limit and your intention is appreciated.

do you feel am Amp+ sub would do a better lower bass than the coaxial speakers ? would rather have a dedicated lower freq sub than a co axial which is going to have a lot of upper bass as well as mids as well ..does that make sense in ICE speakese ? (somehow having directional frequencies like the midrange and uppse bass shooting upwards to the roof is not a very comforting thought !)

just read the thread that you and rsjaurr have recommended...and yes that is pretty helpful.

BTW from your response seems like the Fiesta has some serious grudge against audiophiles ! from what i read coaxials designs are compromised due to their price segment ( the sony colours are downright scary)
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Old 14th January 2007, 23:34   #5133
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youve had it Sharp shooter... an Audiophile on team bhp... . ur gonna have fun... .well we certainly will..... You see going the Audiophile way in a car is expensive business..ull soon reliaize that after a few upgrades...and a few budget failures
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Old 15th January 2007, 00:06   #5134
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sh@rpshooter, welcome to TBHP ICE! Best ICE intro I've read. And you definitely know what you want.

1 & 3. You sound like the front+sub kind of guy. If you don't mind not having rear fill, all you need is a good pair of components up front, a good 4-ch amp and a sub (and a HU, of course). You will get good front-stage if you get good comps and amp them well.
If you are really into music, and you spend 2 hrs daily in your car I would say you should get a sub. Since you don't want a chest massage, and you'll be getting a car with a boot (ok, the verna is a notchback), a 12" in a sealed box would be best. Maybe even a 10" would do. 50Hz to upto say 80Hz will be best when supported by a sub. Most comps will not go below 60hz, and that is when they get amped well.

But 15K will not cut it for the kind of sound you want (warm, somewhat laid-back). And for a start (you've mentioned step-by-step upgrade) 20K
maybe better. The reason I'm saying this is that you need to buy stuff that you shouldn't have to throw out later.

HU: Since you don't have a HU, you should get one that has 3 pre-outs (front+sub needs only 2, but you may change your mind later) and gives a quality signal. That will run to 10K-12K. Options from Alpine, Blaupunkt, Kenwood & Pioneer will be best. I think all the HUs in this range will have aux-in.

Speakers: If what you want is warm, somewhat laid-back sound, JBL may not suit your tastes. JBLs are a bit forward and are brighter than most other options. But you may like the sound from Infinitys. They are more laid back than JBLs and are not as laid back as say Alpine Type-Rs. But Infinity comps will run to about 10K to start with. Alpine Type-Rs maybe 15K. Hertz HSK (Hi-energy) comps will be 15K. You should listen and decide. If it were my money, I'd buy Hertzs (I personally love their sound). But YMMV. You'll need to allocate at least 12K here for speakers. And for your tastes, best avoid co-axials, unless you're using them for rear-fill.

The more sensitive of speakers car-audio will be around 93DB. Most have sensitivity of 90-93DB. Some of the lesser sensitive ones (sometimes more expensive) may sound better (so I've heard), but you'll need expensive amps to get them to move :-)

Another note about speakers: If the music you usually listen to is very vocal intensive (lemme guess, mostly female Jazz artists?), you can consider getting 3-way comps. They will be more expensive (at least 14-15K), but they will be worth it. You'll also need to amp them as soon as you get them, so initial investment will be more.

HU + Speakers will eat a 20K budget (and some) in the beginning.

Amp & wiring: Next add a good 4-ch Amp. Don't go for the entry level ones. Buy at least a JBL GTO75.4 (@13k). Alpines are available for about 20K. Audison amps start at 24.5K. Bridge the amp to 2ch for the time being, and drive the front comps. If you get Hertzs (2-way comps) you can bi-amp them - the XO has the facility. I don't know of you can bi-amp Infinitys or Alpine-Rs. Wiring (Power) will run to about 3K, and RCA interconnects will run to 2K for 2 sets (I assume 2 sets will be needed, even though you are driving only the front channels bridged).

Damping: You may not need damping until you add an amp, but one you do, your front doors will start vibrating and driving you mad. Then you'll need to spend 3-4K to damp your front doors with Dynamat/Fonomat/WURTH/Pylemat etc. Damping the boot & the boot-lid maybe required when you add a sub. The NHC may need damping very soon, sometimes even without an amp. Not sure about the Verna or Fiesta.

Sub: Next get a good 10" or 12" sub in a sealed box. Get a good brand, and don't settle for Pio (Pios do good SPL, but there are better SQ drivers). Options a quite a bit here, in all price ranges. JBL has a good sealed 12" sub-in-a-box solution for 8K. Hertz Energy Subs will cost you between 7.5K (10") and 9K (12"). You'll need to build a box for those (1.5K). IDQ 10" or 12" will be 10K and 12K (approx -- not sure of exact price), and you'll need boxes for these too.

This about completes your requirement. If you'd like to, you can later add rear fill (to the current 4ch amp) and a dedicated amp (monobloc/2 ch) for the sub.

Last edited by hydrashok : 15th January 2007 at 00:09.
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Old 15th January 2007, 01:47   #5135
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Sharpshooter have a look at hydrashok's ICE install a few days back.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/car-en...or-panels.html

That should give you an idea about how much money can be spent on ICE.

Also while making a decision on buying a car here our guru Navinji actually sees how ICE friendly the car is.

As you said fiesta isn't that good.

The Verna/NHC are more friendly.

The 4-channel amp+sub will definitely make a difference to the lower bass. But sometime later you will have to consider rear fills.

All these cars have the midbass components on the bottom of the front door firing towards your legs. That's not so great as it is.

Generally If you have a sub in consideration a good idea is to go for round coaxials in the rear(for the verna you have to put ovals as that the OE size unless you retrofit round ones), the rear fills can be powered by the HU.

The 4 channel amp can then power your front compos and the sub.

Since you are an audiophile you should go around hearing other brands. JBL's are known to be on the brighter side which I personally prefer.
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Old 15th January 2007, 12:04   #5136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elf View Post
though traffic noise comes in a lot more than it did in my 15 year old M1000/Esteem which still had the original beadings .
I too am not happy with my Octavia. The Accord and Sonanta I feel are quieter.
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Old 15th January 2007, 12:18   #5137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post
sh@rpshooter, welcome to TBHP ICE! Best ICE intro I've read. And you definitely know what you want...This about completes your requirement. If you'd like to, you can later add rear fill (to the current 4ch amp) and a dedicated amp (monobloc/2 ch) for the sub.
that was a fantastic read. great job Hydra. I too seem to lean towards a 2x 4ch. amp set up. Use 1 4ch amp for the front speakers and the second for your sub and rears. Given your love for voices a 3 way component system for the front speakers might be a good option but your budget will have to accomodate this. Some years back I heard such a system using Focal components (XO ar 250Hz and 4000Hz) and it was heavenly. However this also requires quite a bit of modification to the car doors.

Do let us know your REAL budget. As an audiophile I trust you will let YOUR ears decide.
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Old 15th January 2007, 13:10   #5138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
that was a fantastic read. great job Hydra. I too seem to lean towards a 2x 4ch. amp set up. .....

Do let us know your REAL budget. As an audiophile I trust you will let YOUR ears decide.


Yep, 2x4-ch gives the most flexibility, esp. for power allocation. I just love 2x4ch setups just for that.

sh@rpshooter, yesssssss. Let us have the audiophile's budget (get your cheque book, CC, ATM card and your first-born ready)
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Old 15th January 2007, 13:24   #5139
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@ hydra...that was a POST!

would have been easier if you had posted this
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/car-en...k-25k-30k.html (basic ICE - systems at various budgets -10K, 15K, 20K, 25K & 30K)

addicts! heh!
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Old 15th January 2007, 13:53   #5140
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wow that is a lot of info..but being new to this will take me some time to digest and work out. I can see the direction my budget is going to go...and having had enough experience on that with my home setup, i am decided to keep a strong heart on this !!
butafter reading this I have half a mind to ditch the car and build that setup on my Balcony

Quote:
1 & 3. You sound like the front+sub kind of guy. If you don't mind not having rear fill, all you need is a good pair of components up front, a good 4-ch amp and a sub (and a HU, of course). You will get good front-stage if you get good comps and amp them well.
If you are really into music, and you spend 2 hrs daily in your car I would say you should get a sub. Since you don't want a chest massage, and you'll be getting a car with a boot (ok, the verna is a notchback), a 12" in a sealed box would be best. Maybe even a 10" would do. 50Hz to upto say 80Hz will be best when supported by a sub. Most comps will not go below 60hz, and that is when they get amped well.
yes, I think I get your point....recently got into the integration of sub thing..i usually prefer upto 8" for subs and do not mind going upto 10" but above that my experience have been most budget subs start getting "Flabby bass" with the lower bass trying to play catchup with the midrange. for a low enclosure like a car should not a smaller woofer be sufficient ?..although i do understand that the damping factor in cars will be very very high..and the power required for SPLs not enough for smaller drivers

If I understand right, here the sub is also going to a job of actually support the mid and low bass..so the crossover point for the sub will be higher ? is it adjustable in car subs.

another issue is the phase difference. due to the placement configuration, the phase of the output from the sub is going to be different from the speakers (lets say at the driver position) is this configuration user changeable or fixed during installation ?

Maybe I am being too impractical with the above in expectations ?

Quote:
Another note about speakers: If the music you usually listen to is very vocal intensive (lemme guess, mostly female Jazz artists?), you can consider getting 3-way comps. They will be more expensive (at least 14-15K), but they will be worth it. You'll also need to amp them as soon as you get them, so initial investment will be more.
i do like male vocals as well and not just jazz..Jagjit singh et al provide me company along with eva cassidy ) lets just say that I am part audiophile and part music lover (ie the interest of the former and the budget of the latter !!)

regarding speakers..JBLs except for their huge Berillium horns usually are a bit forward..but I presume should sound good with warm electronics. ? the damping factor in the car may not play a very important role as the sound is going to be mostly direct and not reflected

Me thinks in the end my car choice is going to be based on this rather than other factors.. a NHCs ample booot should do well here !


I think I should be able to work out an upgrade plan in steps to be done over some time ..how does the below sound ?

Step 1. HU with 2/3 pre outs with compo speakers and dads old Blaupunkt coaxials (think they are 6x9 but not in the best of shapes) - 20K

I guess i need to budget in some 8/10 gauge cables

step 2. A hertz sub on a mono bloc (let me check out the 8"/10) + damping -12-15 k or a JBL all in one - 8k

Step 3. add an 2ch amp in case i am very happy else keep the option of 4ch amp with coaxials in the back open.. 10-12K

I know the amp part sounds odd to put in the end and I do understand the importance of power to a speaker..but I still have to get use to the idea of putting an additional amp in the car !!!
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Old 15th January 2007, 13:58   #5141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post

Do let us know your REAL budget. As an audiophile I trust you will let YOUR ears decide.
quite an (Ab)used term that is ) i would prefer to let the brain do the decision..or else end up with what happened to my stereo.. just my cdp is now broken into 3-4 components...and lets not even talk of their cabling

have resolved to simplify it before setting it up again and its in the process..
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Old 15th January 2007, 14:00   #5142
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@sh@rpshooter: Since you are coming 'back' it would be damn easy to source some components from there itself.
am on Relocation from France..and believe me ..prices of elctronics in Paris are no great adavantage :(
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Old 15th January 2007, 14:19   #5143
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Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post


Yep, 2x4-ch gives the most flexibility, esp. for power allocation. I just love 2x4ch setups just for that.

sh@rpshooter, yesssssss. Let us have the audiophile's budget (get your cheque book, CC, ATM card and your first-born ready)

LOL..but believe me, switching to audiophile mode of listening is serious business. and definitely not to be done in a car while driving. trying to figure out where the vocals in dark side of the moon are actually coming from and where they are supposed to come from could easily end up with a hospital visit for anyone including the driver !

would definitely prefer passive listening and at that point things do get easier !


BTW I am one of those who likes low power hig nsensitivity setups so a bridged am outputing a zilla of power might not seduce me.....yet !!
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Old 15th January 2007, 14:31   #5144
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Originally Posted by hydrashok View Post

The more sensitive of speakers car-audio will be around 93DB. Most have sensitivity of 90-93DB. Some of the lesser sensitive ones (sometimes more expensive) may sound better (so I've heard), but you'll need expensive amps to get them to move :-)
hydra, have a question on the above.
at my home front i run 89db 4 ohms speakers with a 25watter class A (have also tried a 9W digital amp on it) with no problem in a 15 x 10 room..does this work differently in Cars ?
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Old 15th January 2007, 14:49   #5145
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Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter View Post
. just my cdp is now broken into 3-4 components.....
now you got me interested. anytime someone uses a sepertate transport, DAC, etc.. it gets me started.
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