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Old 8th May 2008, 21:47   #8041
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Lightbulb self promotion ??

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If you do this once again I will report you to the mods for shameless self-promotion.
I was under the impression that Dynaudio was sold in India by The Sound Smiths !!

Did 'Z' start an audio business ?
Way to go !!
All the Best ! Great car components.
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Old 8th May 2008, 21:57   #8042
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Hi sam,
welcome to the team. Me too a new guy, but already utilizing the knowledge of fellow bhpians. they are great. So my first question is, am a fan of jbl amps and subs. I have used those for both of my vehicles (old 800 now sold) and also in the present wagon r. Have removed it bcoz of some problems.
I have head unit of pioneer 5090 (usb)
Have installed AD 5 1/2 components in the front after lots of cutting and drilling.
At the rear I have polk audioz 6 x 9s. (sounds good)

Now coming to the point, I want you to help me in getting a good set of amps and sub woofers from jbl. budget is medium. I have come across various types of sub boxes, and i was not satisfied. which type of box would you recommend??. (please exclude tube types)
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Old 8th May 2008, 22:53   #8043
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Hi Experts,

I had recently bought an I10 Magna and want to add ICE. My budget is to get it done between 12-15k. I typically like to hear at medium volume and don't like too much of bass. I have checked the ICE configuration in SoundFactor, Bangalore. Following are the quotes

Pioneer 4050: 5.5k (without b&w)
Pioneer 5050: 6.5k (without b&w)
Pioneer 5050: 8k (without b&w)

JBL 650c: 4,250/-
JBL 652: 2,500/- (didn't go for ovals as I don't want external plank).

Are the quoted prices good?

Also I did not like the Pio 4050 & 5050 HU look & feel compared to Sony 470 & 670. I felt that Pio display is boring. I have seen that t-BHP encourages only Pioneer. Can you educate me on the factors in which Pioneer is better than Sony? If it is only in bass, I may choose sony over Pio as I don't want too much bass anyway.

Also can we get above sony models without B&W?

Also I hate to put any holes in my car. But looks a small hole is need for component speaker for putting the tweeter. is there anyway to avoid this as well?
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Old 8th May 2008, 23:15   #8044
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Originally Posted by mnhegde View Post
Hi sam,
welcome to the team. Me too a new guy, but already utilizing the knowledge of fellow bhpians. they are great. ...

I have come across various types of sub boxes, and i was not satisfied. which type of box would you recommend??. (please exclude tube types)
Hi. Thanks for the warm welcome. lol. It's been many years since I was welcomed to Team-BHP. I like it.

I cannot help you get any JBL, but it is available quite freely in Bangalore city. If you do not like tubes, there are boxed options. You might want to try the new GT5 subwoofer box, someone recently installed it.
Don't forget to use a nice powerful amplifier.

There are some nice options for amplifiers from JBL, Blaupunkt, Kenwood, Pioneer and more. Get a powerful one though.
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Old 8th May 2008, 23:27   #8045
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Oh, a bose fan ( !)
Anyway, Even if you have a 6 incher which has a good excursion, your mids will suffer. the nature of the magnetic field in the center may not be the way it is at the extremes, and can cause Inter modulation distortion

biology?

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Hi. Thanks for the warm welcome. lol. It's been many years since I was welcomed to Team-BHP. I like it.

I cannot help you get any JBL, but it is available quite freely in Bangalore city. If you do not like tubes, there are boxed options. You might want to try the new GT5 subwoofer box, someone recently installed it.
Don't forget to use a nice powerful amplifier.

There are some nice options for amplifiers from JBL, Blaupunkt, Kenwood, Pioneer and more. Get a powerful one though.

Sam welcome to TBHP.

You want him to try the sub someone bought? Steal it?

Will also suggest a good 2 channel amp to be used in bridged mode for sub.
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Old 9th May 2008, 00:15   #8046
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Originally Posted by netrife View Post
Hi Experts,

I had recently bought an I10 Magna and want to add ICE. My budget is to get it done between 12-15k. I typically like to hear at medium volume and don't like too much of bass. I have checked the ICE configuration in SoundFactor, Bangalore. Following are the quotes

Pioneer 4050: 5.5k (without b&w)
Pioneer 5050: 6.5k (without b&w)
Pioneer 6050: 8k (without b&w)

JBL 650c: 4,250/-
JBL 652: 2,500/- (didn't go for ovals as I don't want external plank).

Are the quoted prices good?

Also I did not like the Pio 4050 & 5050 HU look & feel compared to Sony 470 & 670. I felt that Pio display is boring. I have seen that t-BHP encourages only Pioneer. Can you educate me on the factors in which Pioneer is better than Sony? If it is only in bass, I may choose sony over Pio as I don't want too much bass anyway.

Also can we get above sony models without B&W?

Also I hate to put any holes in my car. But looks a small hole is need for component speaker for putting the tweeter. is there anyway to avoid this as well?
Correction: Pioneer 6050: 8k (without b&w)
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Old 9th May 2008, 10:52   #8047
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Elvis, on the other hand, didn't need bass to get his music across - the string bass (mostly unamplified) accompaniment in Rock from those days didn't go that low.
Bill Black (Elvis's Bass Player on his early recordings) bass reprouced bass (using an uplight double bass) to the "Low E" (about 42Hz) and the impact of his slap bass would much better reprocued on a larger speaker than a 6".

On the video of the song My Baby's request (Paul McCartney & Wings - Back to the egg) you can see Bill Black's upright bass!

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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
And I would need Navin's help with the rest of this post!
My understanding of magnetic fields is not what it used to be.
I can only assume greenhorn meant one/all of the following
1. the lower the frequency the more the cone flex. givent hat the same driver is reproducing 20hz and 100hz (if it is a midbass) there will be some distortion. I am just not sure that this distortion can be termed as IM it is more phase than IM. Also today with Kevlar/Carbon/Metal (low flex) cones and associated damping (to absord the rining) in the surrounds this issue has been mostly licked. The masters of this technique are Ted Jordan and his ex-wife Doreen.

2. as the cone moves in and out of the magnetic field all of the voice coil will not beinthe magntic field and this will mean that the movement is not linear. Again this can lead to distortions but I dont think we can call them IM - it is more akin to amplitude modulation distortion which behaves (atleast mathematically) like IM. On a spectrumanalyser this distoriton looks just like the distortion of an amplifier when soft-clipped.

3. If a loudspeaker is reproducing 2 frequencies say 20hz and 30Hz then there will be aliased frequencies at 10Hz and 50Hz. Howevr these effects are really not very audible and given the limited control we have over it's reduction (can we really practically have 10 way loudspeakers) we have just learnt to live with this.

greenhorn can you elaborate on what you meant. I believe maybe neither of my assumptions are correct. Unfortunately my understanding of loudspeakers is quite limited.

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Originally Posted by BHAGWAN View Post
I was under the impression that Dynaudio was sold in India by The Sound Smiths !!
I thought SS only representd the home audio part of Dyn. I tried to find out who handled the car audio business (while you were travelling) but have not got any confirmations as yet.

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
It's been many years since I was welcomed to Team-BHP. I like it.
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Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
Sam welcome to TBHP.
Sam I think you remember this welcome.
"Welcome back, Your dreams were your ticket out.
Welcome back, To that same old place that you laughed about.

Well the names have all changed since you hung around,
But those dreams have remained and they're turned around.
Who'd have thought they'd lead ya (Who'd have thought they'd lead ya)
Here where we need ya (Here where we need ya)

Yeah we tease him a lot cause we've got him on the spot, welcome back,
Welcome back! Welcome back! Welcome back!"

Last edited by navin : 9th May 2008 at 11:32.
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Old 9th May 2008, 10:57   #8048
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Originally Posted by zucchero View Post
yes 'B' even i will cut them at 80hz once i have my subs.as of today i am running without subs and to be honest in some tracks i hardly miss them
It is when you are stressing them like Navin Ji said that it is the brain thinking that they are producing bass but they are not. And like Ajay Bhai said don`t compare home with car audio the drivers are quite different.
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Old 9th May 2008, 10:59   #8049
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Originally Posted by BHAGWAN View Post
I was under the impression that Dynaudio was sold in India by The Sound Smiths !!

Did 'Z' start an audio business ?
Way to go !!
All the Best ! Great car components.
I said self-promotion, not promotion of the products he represents.
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Old 9th May 2008, 11:08   #8050
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brain thinking.now what does that mean and how does that 'mirage' thing happens??
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Old 9th May 2008, 11:42   #8051
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Originally Posted by zucchero View Post
brain thinking.now what does that mean and how does that 'mirage' thing happens??
It is dealt in the AES papers on psychoacoustics. I had read some of these papers some time back (I had a personal issue with one of the leading proponents of psychoacoustics). Basically what these paper propose (I say propose becuase I sitll have a problem wraping my head around that gobble-ti-gook) is that if a loudspeaker reproduces 80Hz and 250Hz the brain will ignore the missing frequencies and still be able to "understand the music" and hence the listener's enjoyment is not compromised.

The same argument is used for speakers with limited LF. Only there is more evideince to sow that even well educated ears are quite happy with speakers having limited LF (missing octave) as long at the rest of the reproduction is well defined and transparent.
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Old 9th May 2008, 11:53   #8052
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Originally Posted by navin View Post

2. as the cone moves in and out of the magnetic field all of the voice coil will not beinthe magntic field and this will mean that the movement is not linear. Again this can lead to distortions but I dont think we can call them IM - it is more akin to amplitude modulation distortion which behaves (atleast mathematically) like IM. On a spectrumanalyser this distoriton looks just like the distortion of an amplifier when soft-clipped.

3. If a loudspeaker is reproducing 2 frequencies say 20hz and 30Hz then there will be aliased frequencies at 10Hz and 50Hz. Howevr these effects are really not very audible and given the limited control we have over it's reduction (can we really practically have 10 way loudspeakers) we have just learnt to live with this.

greenhorn can you elaborate on what you meant. I believe maybe neither of my assumptions are correct. Unfortunately my understanding of loudspeakers is quite limited.
Yup,I think thats what i meant. I'll illustrate what i had in mind. if you have a strong 50hz bass signal, and a weak 5khz voice signal, as the speaker moves over its usable excursion range, the magnetic field strength varies slightly. say it is 98% at the extremes what it is at the center. though it will not affect the 50Hz signal by much, the 5Khz signal which is piggybacking , varies in amplitude as the driver moves from one extreme to another. It will be reproduced at full amplitude at the center , and 98% at the extremes. thus the 5Khz signal gets amplitude modulated by the 50Hz signal, and you get IM.

So what i was saying was that , even if you had components which could do 50hz , if you asked them to work at 50, the mids would suffer this distortion
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Old 9th May 2008, 12:21   #8053
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So what i was saying was that , even if you had components which could do 50hz , if you asked them to work at 50, the mids would suffer this distortion
OK, thanks. Now it is clear.
The ideal system would be 19981 drivers, one for each frequency from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz.
Instead of such complexity, I have opted for the 'psychoacoustical' way, and only focus on what my ears & brain can perceive. And what my purse can afford.
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Old 9th May 2008, 13:13   #8054
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
OK, thanks. Now it is clear.
The ideal system would be 19981 drivers, one for each frequency from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz.
Instead of such complexity, I have opted for the 'psychoacoustical' way, and only focus on what my ears & brain can perceive. And what my purse can afford.
actually 3-4 ways are adequate.
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Old 9th May 2008, 13:17   #8055
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Thankyou, Navin!
Most enlightening, as always.
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