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Old 21st December 2012, 16:07   #11851
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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
I doubt you will be able to achieve the sound you are hoping for with that budget. At that price you will be able to get an ICE installed. One that is powerful, loud, bassy but not very accurate and might fall short of your expectations.
Meanwhile are you sure about a used Safari? Maintenance costs and reliability might be an issue. Just saying. I'm sure you must have considered those facts already
Hey Ishaan,

This is spooky stuff, I never even mentioned about getting a used safari !! There is still a lot of debate on the used safari/scorpio and a lot of jazz, but its going to be a SUV. So took safari as a benchmark (now you really know I am dumb about ICE !!)

I had a the same feeling about the budget and the sound quality that I am expecting.
Would it be possible to have an assorted setup that can come even close to that in the desired budget? and if the budget has to be extended, then what figures are we looking at ?

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Old 21st December 2012, 16:19   #11852
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Well the Safari as an SUV/car is pretty potent no doubt
I am no expert on ICE either but from the limited experience I have, I would suggest a budget of 50 but since that might be stretching it too much, I think one could work with 40k. You'd be looking for clean audio so I'd suggest either Focal or Morel components. As for the Bass a 12 inch sealed enclosure Rockford Fosgate sub (if the budget can be stretched even more then dual subs :P) And to drive the entire thing invest in a good 4ch. amp for the speakers (maybe infinity or alpine) and if you still have the cash, then a monoblock for sub otherwise perhaps a 2ch pioneer amp would do the trick Mix all of this with some scosche wiring and most importantly a good installer, and you're set.
(BTW do not have complete faith in my novice suggestions. Get them cross referenced with an expert who might also be able to give you a more detailed description of what you can get)

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Old 21st December 2012, 16:32   #11853
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Well the Safari as an SUV/car is pretty potent no doubt ......

Absolutely no doubt in Safari's abilities !! Its just the niggles that have me a bit concerned. That, however is for another discussion.

I really appreciate you taking time out to help out. I will make a note of this. And will keep an eye out for other suggestions as well regarding this query. And the final decision would come rely on the trials. Just that to try out something, I should know what to try out !!

Any suggestions on the HU/Carputer bit?
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Old 21st December 2012, 16:33   #11854
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But recently I was gifted awesome headphones (Bose AE02) by my wife who really loves listening to music. And What a difference it made to the whole "listening to music" concept.
The sound system in my Fabia, doesn't feel adequate anymore !!

And plan to invest in a good ICE setup. Would be looking at Safari VX or GX. So headrest mounted screens would be present already.

Requirements would be A good HU Front and Rear speakers, plus a sub., tweeters and a good amplifier that can help support the setup.

Also I would be using the car mostly as a 5 seater, so a bit of compromise in the boot space is OK

My budget would be around 25-30K

Would also be interested in knowing average costs in setting up a carputer, and would the effects be equivalent to a good HU? If feasible a carputer would be a more preferred option for me. And do not mind spending a bit extra for it, say in the range of 30-45 (all inclusive) + Cost of suitable damping
1. it is very diffcult for even high grade audiophile audio systems to compete with good head phones. headphones work in a defined space (the human ear) and dont have to contend with reflections and standing waves.

2. The Safari is known to have terrible body work (the Fabia is many degrees better) and needs quite a bit of damping. I would recommend that you consider damping all 5 doors well. This alone would cost about 10K.

3. head rest mounted screens are about 3-4K each but be aware that getting a good fit in the head rest varies from installer to installer.

Begining Budgets
HU 6-7k for audio and 10-12K for one that play video
Front and rear speakers (in doors) 10K for 2 pairs (1 pair of components and 1 pair of coax).
Subwoofer and amplifier: 12-16K (6K for amplifier, 2K for RCA, 6K for subwoofer in box or 10-12K for a powered sub).
Head rest screens (if you want video): 3-4K each plus install costs
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Old 21st December 2012, 16:43   #11855
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Absolutely no doubt in Safari's abilities !! Its just the niggles that have me a bit concerned. That, however is for another discussion.

I really appreciate you taking time out to help out. I will make a note of this. And will keep an eye out for other suggestions as well regarding this query. And the final decision would come rely on the trials. Just that to try out something, I should know what to try out !!

Any suggestions on the HU/Carputer bit?
I am absolutely clueless about hu/carputer but if you are dead set on a carputer, check out the parrot asteroid im not sure about the name it comes installed with android, can hook up to a bunch of phones, has voice recognition, wifi/3g access their website says it isn't out yet im sure it will be by the time you get your car
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Old 21st December 2012, 17:46   #11856
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1. it is very diffcult for even high grade audiophile audio systems to compete with good head phones. headphones work in a defined space (the human ear) and dont have to contend with reflections and standing waves.

Okk, A couple of hours from my first post, and my budget has already gone up from 30 to almost 50 !!
Thanks for the suggestions Navin, Keeping the budget suggested by you in mind, which brands (for HU, Sub, amplifier?) could be considered best in the given price range?

Damping is one of the first things on the agenda.

Also any suggestions on the HU vs Carputer Bit? What would you suggest better ? I don't mind extending my budget given the fact that I can do much more with a carputer !!

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
I am absolutely clueless about hu/carputer but if you are dead set on a carputer, check out the parrot asteroid im not sure about the name it comes installed with android, can hook up to a bunch of phones, has voice recognition, wifi/3g access their website says it isn't out yet im sure it will be by the time you get your car
OKk, Parrot asteroid will be the topic of some research for today then !! I am still not quite sure about having a Carputer or a normal HU. just exploring my options. I also have read on this forum that carputers offer much more flexibilities when it comes down to tuning.

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Old 21st December 2012, 18:35   #11857
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Originally Posted by NMS View Post
... plan to invest in a good ICE setup. Would be looking at Safari VX or GX. So headrest mounted screens would be present already.
...
My budget would be around 25-30K (all inclusive) + cost of a suitable damping for the entire setup. Would be looking at Bluetooth and Ipod connectivity as a priority. ...
Your budget is decent for a decent audio system that would support iPod and BT. If you are buying a Safari GX or VX, check before hand if the OE HU supports BT and iPod. Otherwise you will need to change the HU, and then it will be a bit tight. That's because an HU with Video, iPod and BT support costs upwards of 13K (1DIN, Safari has only a 1DIN HU location).

Speakers (if 6.5") and amp can be reused if you put in the Fabia and then transfer to the Safari. Cabling, maybe (lengths are more in Safari). Speakers will cost 9-12K, amp ~6K, sub + box ~6-8K. That's 21-26K + cabling.

Damping in the Safari will cost at least 6K (larger area to damp). A Carputer will be at least an additional 15K if you do some DIY work like cabinet work, else 20K+.

And please don't compare the headphones with ICE - different listening conditions. For sure it will be better than the Bose, but still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
... 2. The Safari is known to have terrible body work (the Fabia is many degrees better) ...
Actually, no. Safari is far better than the Fabia - costs much less to damp. The outer skins are already damped. One needs to damp those massive doorpads. A bit on the outer skin, and some on the inner.

The 5th door one needs only judiciously stuffed cc-foam and virgin cotton waste - that's all. That also, if one is using a sub - without a sub it is just fine without damping.

Last edited by DerAlte : 21st December 2012 at 18:42.
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Old 21st December 2012, 19:06   #11858
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Your budget is decent for a decent audio system that would support iPod and BT. If you are buying a Safari GX or VX, check before hand if the OE HU supports BT and iPod. Otherwise you will need to change the HU, and then it will be a bit tight. That's because an HU with Video, iPod and BT support costs upwards of 13K (1DIN, Safari has only a 1DIN HU location).

Thanks DerAlte,

Regarding the HU, the stock HU is believe is Alpine, of which I haven't heard too many great reviews (I mean the Alpine HU that comes with Safari, and not the brand as a whole, before someone bashes me up !!) Would it be sufficient to get a good output from the components that would go into the setup?

The idea is to also have a Navigation system in the car, so if I go for the carputer, I believe it will take care of the navigation requirement too. And hence I am ready to stretch a bit more. So like you said 21-26K for the components put together plus an additional 20 K, plus damping, so we are looking at a round figure of around 55 K.

Which would be the best buys in the price range you mentioned? And what can be the best combination of components ? Sorry for asking so many questions !! Quite a noob in this section

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Old 22nd December 2012, 03:06   #11859
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Hey everyone,

I have been trying to find answers to some ICE queries & thought of sharing those queries here in the hope of getting some quick & sound answers. These queries are w.r.t an audio upgrade that I plan on a Ford Figo TDCi.

Let me begin by sharing what I plan to do & what I already have.
I have two Pioneer 2-ohm DVC subs with 400w RMS each & I intend on purchasing a mono that can run these two units. At the same time, I would definitely want something that makes me future-proof, which is to say, if I upgrade my subs (possibly to better & more powerful ones) at some later date, then I wouldn't want to immediately invest in another mono. So, need something that should give out about 700-1000w RMS (true power & not on paper) at a 2-ohm load.

Secondly, I would only want to have a class-D circuit & not A/B, primarily due to heating issues & lesser efficiency in A/B designs.

So, below are my questions:

1. W.r.t above considerations & a budget of about 10-15K, what are my options.

2. I have a Figo & along with this mono, I would be using a 4 channel Kenwood M845 (rated at 36A). I estimate that a mono for my requirements would need anywhere between 50-55 Amperes & thus, do you think that this is a feasible setup on the Figo TDCi? I am not sure of the alternator rating, but guessing that it would be about 60A (which is the usual in this segment). I do not want to risk an electrical damage, especially since the car is brand new & in warranty.

3. What sort of a wiring kit should I consider for the monoblock? With the 4-channel (Kenwood M-845), I would be using an 8 guage kit (which came off an older setup). So, would the mono (for my requirements i.e. about 700-1000w RMS) need a 4 guage or something even lower like a 2 guage?

4. What kits are available that should serve me good & at the cheapest possible price? I am not looking at an expensive kit just for the heck of a thicker power cable because I would prefer using that money for good RCA cables instead. I am not sure if this is the right train of thought though.

I would really appreciate if I could get some guidance/suggestions in this regard.

Drive safe.

Last edited by blackfire_9 : 22nd December 2012 at 03:08.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 10:46   #11860
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Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
I have two Pioneer 2-ohm DVC subs with 400w RMS... So, need something that should give out about 700-1000w RMS (true power & not on paper) at a 2-ohm load.

1. W.r.t above considerations & a budget of about 10-15K, what are my options.

2. I have a Figo & along with this mono, I would be using a 4 channel Kenwood M845 (rated at 36A).

3. What sort of a wiring kit should I consider for the monoblock?
need a 4 guage or something even lower like a 2 guage?

4. What kits are available that should serve me good & at the cheapest possible price?
I dont know of any 700W class D amp that will cost less than Rs. 30K. The cheapest Class D 700W amp I know of is the JL HD750. It retails for about $500 in the US. For about $300 you can get the lower rated XD600.

I believe the JBL GTO 7001 (which is Class AB) is now discontinued but it would work. Basically what you need is an amp that can put out 350-450W at 4 ohms and 700-900W at 2 ohms. This would ensure that when you are using 2 2ohm subs in series each subwoofer will get 200W and when you are using 4 2 ohm subs in series/parallel (effective 2ohms) again each subwoofer would get 200W (in the case of an amp like the XD600 you will still get 150W rms per woofer).

Even if the amp is rated as stable at 1 ohms I prefer not to push amps to this extreme as you end up sacrificing control and definition and get only 1-2db more SPL.

Since you have a Kenwood 845 why not using the 9105D for the subs. It will put out about 300W at 4ohms (12.5V) and 600W at 2 ohms (similar to the XD600) and is a cheaper than the JL.

For the power wiring you can use 4 gauge for each amp. You can buy any good ISI brand power cable like Polycab.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 14:00   #11861
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Hi navin,

Thank you for your prompt response & for sharing your views. However, what are your thoughts on Q.2 from my earlier post (pertaining to the electrical load on the car)?

Moving on, I again have a few questions.

1. Is there any way that I could ascertain the range of actual power a certain amplifier was giving out? I ask because it appears that for my needs, there are amplifiers offering similar power ratings from as low as 8K to as high as probably a lac & they can't all be equal. I do understand that you get what you pay for, but for someone who cannot afford to spend a very high amount, how do I ensure that if suppose I buy the Kenwod KAC-9105D, it would actually put out about 600W at 12.5V (which is what's actually listed for this amp, I believe)?

2. Based on my limited research, I think I can lay my hands on amplifiers from Kenwood, Rockford Fosgate, Kicker & Hertz. I need to check about JL Audio although I seem to get an impression that they may cost much higher & way over my budget.
Nevertheless, I understand that 9105D is probably the option I have from Kenwood & R500-1 is an option from RF. Would you also be able to suggest some similarly spec'd options from Kicker & Hertz & an idea towards their pricing?

3. Out of the below options, which one is the better amplifier (barring a price difference of a few thousand rupees)?
a. Kenwood KAC-9105D
b. Rockford Fosgate R500-1
c. Kicker (any model that you may suggest above, as answer to Q2)
d. Hertz (any model that you may suggest above, as answer to Q2)

4. If I go ahead with Polycab as a power wire, which category of their wires should I be looking at? I see from the company's website (http://www.polycab.com/cables-and-wires.html) that they have 3 different categories & would request some "gyaan" on what category should be used & why.

5. Is there any way that 2 KAC-M845 amps can be used to run one DVC sub (with two 2-ohm voice coils), say by pooling the bridged output from both the amps? If possible, do you think its worth it?

6. Can all the 4 channels of a single KAC-M845 amplifier be used to power a single DVC sub (with two 2-ohm voice coils)? If possible, do you think its worth it?

Once again, I know its a long post but hope that you wouldn't mind & would share your opinions.

Drive safe.

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I dont know of any 700W class D amp that will cost less than Rs. 30K. The cheapest Class D 700W amp I know of is the JL HD750. It retails for about $500 in the US. For about $300 you can get the lower rated XD600.

I believe the JBL GTO 7001 (which is Class AB) is now discontinued but it would work. Basically what you need is an amp that can put out 350-450W at 4 ohms and 700-900W at 2 ohms. This would ensure that when you are using 2 2ohm subs in series each subwoofer will get 200W and when you are using 4 2 ohm subs in series/parallel (effective 2ohms) again each subwoofer would get 200W (in the case of an amp like the XD600 you will still get 150W rms per woofer).

Even if the amp is rated as stable at 1 ohms I prefer not to push amps to this extreme as you end up sacrificing control and definition and get only 1-2db more SPL.

Since you have a Kenwood 845 why not using the 9105D for the subs. It will put out about 300W at 4ohms (12.5V) and 600W at 2 ohms (similar to the XD600) and is a cheaper than the JL.

For the power wiring you can use 4 gauge for each amp. You can buy any good ISI brand power cable like Polycab.

Last edited by blackfire_9 : 22nd December 2012 at 14:03.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 18:21   #11862
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... stock HU is believe is Alpine, ... Would it be sufficient to get a good output from the components that would go into the setup?

... Navigation system in the car, so if I go for the carputer, I believe it will take care of the navigation requirement too. ...
Bad reviews about the Alpine that comes OE with Safari? Were they talking about sound quality or features given in that HU? Any OE HU has limited features, since OE cost is directly proportional to features. Of course that Alpine will suffice to provide good output to the amp and components.

Components: Infinity, JBL, Auditor, Boston, Polk, Morel, ... plenty of options in that price bracket, but depends what is available near you. Check around and take auditions (whoever doesn't give an audition is not worth buying from)
Amp: Kenwood, JBL, Pioneer
Sub: JBL, Infinity, Kicker, Polk, ...

Think carefully about the CarPC. If you are not the adventurous DIY PC types, perhaps you would be better off with a dedicated Garmin navigation unit. You can take it out and use in anywhere else, a CarPC you can't. A dedicated Garmin unit costs 10-20K, depending on features. A 20K CarPC is the equivalent of a Netbook.

A CarPC has a different set of problems than a desktop or laptop - the first and foremost being adapting to the start/stop situation one faces in the vehicle. Each problem that you try to solve keeps adding to the cost, till it is as costly as a good desktop PC running on UPS.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 21:26   #11863
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Guru's looking for some advise here. Recently own one fortuner, so looking for upgrade ICE. my requirements:

1. Looking for back seat screen, preference on head rest.
2. doesn't want to change system, if possible.
3. Preferably no sub, as need space on the back

So the choice stays with replacing original speakers and adding decent amp. Does this make sense or I stick with original setup.

One more query with original DVD player, does this stop playing DVD video while driving?
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Old 22nd December 2012, 22:51   #11864
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Bad reviews about the Alpine that comes OE with Safari? Were they talking about sound quality or features given in that HU?
Thanks DerAlte,

Now this is beginning to make sense. If the Stock HU will suffice for most to get a good output from the Components going into the ICE, then I think, it would be better to prefer setting up the other components. And later if need be might just upgrade the HU. If the ICE bug keeps biting that is !!

I am aware of quite a few issues with the CarPC, and was therefore sceptical about it. Still doing a bit of research. And frankly, I can be a bit careless at times, i.e. if the additional features are not working in the carpc, I might just let it be for quite sometime, which is not a very good thing to do. So I guess a setup with HU makes most sense as of now. !!

Thanks for the help guys !! Next update on this thread from me will be when I am actually out trying out and buying stuff !!
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Old 23rd December 2012, 12:35   #11865
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Hi navin,

Wheat are your thoughts on Q.2 from my earlier post (pertaining to the electrical load on the car)?

1. Is there any way that I could ascertain the range of actual power a certain amplifier was giving out?...If suppose I buy the Kenwod KAC-9105D, it would actually put out about 600W at 12.5V (which is what's actually listed for this amp, I believe)?

3. Out of the below options, which one is the better amplifier (barring a price difference of a few thousand rupees)?
a. Kenwood KAC-9105D
b. Rockford Fosgate R500-1
c. Kicker (any model that you may suggest above, as answer to Q2)
d. Hertz (any model that you may suggest above, as answer to Q2)

4. If I go ahead with Polycab as a power wire, which category of their wires should I be looking at?

5. Is there any way that 2 KAC-M845 amps can be used to run one DVC sub (with two 2-ohm voice coils), say by pooling the bridged output from both the amps? If possible, do you think its worth it?

6. Can all the 4 channels of a single KAC-M845 amplifier be used to power a single DVC sub (with two 2-ohm voice coils)? If possible, do you think its worth it?
As long you use good power cables I would not worry about the alternator ratings.

The more expensive mono amplifiers usually have better protection, better current delivery, and are stable to 1 and even 0.5 ohms. I have however never pushed an amplifier below 1 ohms load.

I believe., the Hertz amp equivalent in power output to the Kenwood would be considerably more expensive (around 15-20k. I do not think the Kicker would outperform the Kenwood by a large margin. Kenwood makes some pretty decent amps for the money.

I do not have Polycab's catalog with me so can only answer this on Wednesday when I get back to my office.

Using 2 amps (one for each coil) can be done but I do not recommend it. Maybe each coil induces a small voltage in the other coil and if the 2 amps are not perfectly in phase ( an almost impossible condition unless we use a closed loop control system - aka phase locked loop) you might have some trouble. The one time I tried it nothing was damaged but the results were not pleasant. I would assume the same would apply for 2 bridged channels of the 845.
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