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Old 15th May 2013, 14:34   #12091
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
Yes the kenwood has fixed setting on one of its channel. For a modest installation it might not be a problem. ...
Perhaps you can throw some light as to how the 80Hz -12dB fixed HPF on A channels of the Kenwood M846 is a problem for non-modest installations?

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... When there is a sub with separate amp there can be phase issues. At that point an adjustable crossover comes in handy than a fixed switch. ...
Ditto for this: how do you correct Phase issues of a Sub on a separate amp with a variable HPF feeding components on another amp? Would be very illuminating to know.
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Old 15th May 2013, 16:38   #12092
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Perhaps you can throw some light as to how the 80Hz -12dB fixed HPF on A channels of the Kenwood M846 is a problem for non-modest installations?
Tuning! Especially if you are on factory headunit without any other crossovers.

So if this helps anyone! this is my view. In simple words without going too technical.

If channel A is used for front or rear speaker. And You decide to push volume to the max with little bit of boost in eq of 40 -60hz range, the speakers cones are going to play low frequency having lot more excursion on them. Its nothing bad, but on some budget speakers you can easily bottom out the speakers. And when speakers are close to xmax, the SQ will take a hit.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Ditto for this: how do you correct Phase issues of a Sub on a separate amp with a variable HPF feeding components on another amp? Would be very illuminating to know.
One or more drivers of different size and capability trying to reproduce the same frequency may cause a problem.

Just use the following as a sample scenario.

Assuming kenwood amp for front speakers and the same amp's channel B or even a separate amp for the sub.
Based on the vehicle type, enclosure type, sub, location and crossover settings of the sub amp (lets say 80hz lpf) there might be a phase cancellation at around 80 to 100hz region. Lets say there is one for the sake of this theory. You can lower the Crossover(lpf) to 60hz or 70hz on the sub amp. Depending on the setup it might help or there might a dip in the spectrum.

What if, you could push the front crossover to 100hz and push the sub to 80 or 90hz....
Anyways Having proper crossovers on the amp is always better than having non or a fixed one!
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Old 15th May 2013, 17:39   #12093
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... without any other crossovers. ...
"Crossovers"? Or "Filters"? There is a difference, you know.

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... In simple words without going too technical. ...
Oh no, please don't restrain yourself - we love to hear a technical dissertation!

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... If channel A is used for front or rear speaker. And You decide to push volume to the max with little bit of boost in eq of 40 -60hz range, ...
AND you have NOT set HPF at the A channels of the amp? I fail to see the problem if HPF is set, EVEN if there is a fixed HPF at 80 Hz with a -12dB rollover, no matter how much boost is given at the HU Equalizer.

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... there might be a phase cancellation at around 80 to 100hz region. ...
I am a bit confused here:
1. Are you describing your *previously* mentioned scenario, or is this a new scenario? I was expecting an answer w.r.t. your previous scenario
2. How is Phase Cancellation getting corrected by pushing up the LPF to 80 / 100 / whatever frequency?

* Isn't the sub anyhow not supposed to handle that F region (normally installed, not F response)?
* If one is using less-capable speakers in the front (cannot go lower than 120Hz, for example, which may need the sub to play higher), why in the first place is the sub put in? Why not NOT SET the LPF at all, since the sub will naturally not make any recognizable sound above 250Hz?
* If there is 'phase cancellation' (not able to visualize why only in the 80-100 Hz region) - why is the Phase cancellation not being analyzed and tackled? As I mentioned above, it can only be lack of capability in that region in the front speaker, and not 'phase cancellation' (which has a different genus)
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Old 16th May 2013, 10:28   #12094
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
"Crossovers"? Or "Filters"? There is a difference, you know.
Sure Crossovers are used to filter the musical spectrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Oh no, please don't restrain yourself - we love to hear a technical dissertation!
Your way of asking questions is better since that would give in depth details step by step instead of a long post with confusing details.


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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
AND you have NOT set HPF at the A channels of the amp? I fail to see the problem if HPF is set, EVEN if there is a fixed HPF at 80 Hz with a -12dB rollover, no matter how much boost is given at the HU Equalizer.
Over here I will base the matter only on speaker cone excursion or protecting the driver from bottoming out.

The 12db roll off sometimes doesnt help.

Many a times you need 16db or 24db slope (I agree those slopes exist not just to protect the speakers but lets use the idea for the particular reason).

If you car has 4 inch driver. 80hz wont really help if the owner has a habit of cranking it up.
The simplest method is to reduce the gain if you hear speaker popping (bottoming out). I used to do that on the kenwood amps long ago. I believe most of the people are tuning in this way.

Setting 80hz hpf on 12db slope doesn't mean the speaker wouldnt see 50hz. It only means 50hz would be heavily attenuated compared to the -3db attenuation of 80hz.

I am not against the kenwood amp, they are the best and reliable amp within the price range. Never had a failed one (unless you dipped it in salt water). I am only saying If i were to choose an amp, I would prefer one with variable crossover settings on HPF and LPF.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
I am a bit confused here:
1. Are you describing your *previously* mentioned scenario, or is this a new scenario? I was expecting an answer w.r.t. your previous scenario
Yes, I can explain.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
2. How is Phase Cancellation getting corrected by pushing up the LPF to 80 / 100 / whatever frequency?
Phase cancellation might not be completely solved by this method.

First of we need to know why its there or whether its phase cancellation or something else. (Bad install, Reverse polarity on speakers or sub etc...)
(I bet there will be question on reverse polarity and phase, are those the same?)

Anyways I will outline the step quickly without details.

Are the speakers all on the same phase and polarity?

Easy way to know that is to check the polarity.

Then use a phase testing tool to confirm.

Use the balance control on Head unit for the following two steps

* Play front speakers on test tones from 40hz onwards to around 125hz to see if they are not cancelling out.

* Play rear speakers and try the same method above


Use the Fader control on Head unit

* Bring in slightly the front speakers and if there is no cancellation, its time to bring in the sub stage.

Use Sub control on Head unit or remote

* Bring in the sub on each of test tone range from 30 all the way to 125hz. Listen carefully and it will be evident where the speakers are cancelling the sub or vice versa.

For the context here, lets say we found a phase issue and it can be fixed only by messing around with Crossover settings.

May we want to try settings at speakers on 100hz -12db slope and sub on 80hz -12db on the amp to rectify this. So how would you do this or atleast try to see if that can fix if your amp has fixed setting.
(Now lets say I run a business and I was doing this installation for a customer. How do i explain to the customer during a tuning session that I am limited on tuning due to this? Would sound really lame.)

An RTA helps at this moment to see if there is a dip in the spectrum or listening can help if you know what to look for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
* Isn't the sub anyhow not supposed to handle that F region (normally installed, not F response)?
Depends on the install, vehicle and enclosure. Generally setting the LPF at 80hz works and a big population of music lover don't understand the issue at all. They know the music but they dont understand musical spectrum.

Generally people add a sub and become happy about those 40hz and 50hz boost. Eventually they complaint that the punch is lacking or the sub has too much rumble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post


* If one is using less-capable speakers in the front (cannot go lower than 120Hz, for example, which may need the sub to play higher), why in the first place is the sub put in? Why not NOT SET the LPF at all, since the sub will naturally not make any recognizable sound above 250Hz?
I can do that if i have a kenwood 350 amp and basic kenwood amp. You would hear a lot of the music coming from the sub.

It might sound really bad if we try this on a sub that doesn't have the required frequency response. (30Hz to 100Hz only subs)

And there are subs with frequency response all way to 1000hz and it can be smartly installed to get loud if sound stage is not a problem.

But Lets say you do not set crossover on a sub that does 1000W RMS and the amp is truly capable of driving that power. You will soon cook the Voice coil.

Cooling is a huge part in subwoofer construction. Those 120hz upwards of musical power will not help much in cooling the voice coil as there wouldn't be much excursion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post

* If there is 'phase cancellation' (not able to visualize why only in the 80-100 Hz region) - why is the Phase cancellation not being analyzed and tackled? As I mentioned above, it can only be lack of capability in that region in the front speaker, and not 'phase cancellation' (which has a different genus)
So in short, If there is a phase problem after you have done proper installation, phase checks performed, amp gains and standard crossover settings dialed.

It could be due to the lack of capability of the speakers or sub. And it has to be analyzed before just running to the crossover and changing it. For me crossover setting is the fine tuning before i touch the equalizer for tonality.

The only reason why we are stuck at 80hz is because of the topic on the 80hz fixed hpf of kenwood amp.


Once again all the above is applicable on case to case basis and doesnt mean Kenwood amp is bad.

And generally the idea is to feel that the bass upfront and blending with the front speaker stage.

What does this mean to me and why am i going on an on. When I set the crossover correctly I feel the bass upfront. (TA is another subject that i dont want to touch)

Hope all the above information helps someone!

We are all learning as SQ and SPL is extremely challenging in car audio.

(Same goes for mono amps with phase control knob - I would prefer amps with phase variation control)

Last edited by general_neo : 16th May 2013 at 10:38. Reason: Added last line
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Old 16th May 2013, 11:41   #12095
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
Sure Crossovers are used to filter the musical spectrum! ...
The answer doesn't match the question, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... Over here I will base the matter only on speaker cone excursion or protecting the driver from bottoming out.
Different philosophy - since most people limit the volume they play at.


... Many a times you need 16db or 24db slope (I agree those slopes exist not just to protect the speakers but lets use the idea for the particular reason). ??? The slopes have nothing to do with driver protection, right?

If you car has 4 inch driver. 80hz wont really help if the owner has a habit of cranking it up. It won't help anyhow, since very few 4" drivers go that low

The simplest method is to reduce the gain if you hear speaker popping (bottoming out). Simpler method is to reduce volume while listening. The installer cannot be held responsible if the owner is a masochist! If the speaker is bottoming out and the owner is still pushing it, the person must be tone-deaf.

Setting 80hz hpf on 12db slope doesn't mean the speaker wouldnt see 50hz. It only means 50hz would be heavily attenuated compared to the -3db attenuation of 80hz. 1. If set to 80Hz, the -3dB would be at a lower frequency, wouldn't it? 2. If it is heavily attenuated, it wouldn't be audible, right?

... I would prefer one with variable crossover settings on HPF and LPF. Sure, even I would. But, I wouldn't see that as a limitation. And, the HPF and LPF would be 'HPXO' and 'LPXO' if they were to be crossovers.

Yes, I can explain. ...
But, you still haven't explained why and how cut-off frequency setting will correct 'phase cancellation'!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... We are all learning as SQ and SPL is extremely challenging in car audio ...
Please do take time to patiently read the other threads in the ICE section. There is a wealth of information here, from people who can teach the theory and practice of the subject. 'Challenging' is not a deterrent nor a driver here.
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Old 16th May 2013, 12:07   #12096
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The answer doesn't match the question, does it?

But, you still haven't explained why and how cut-off frequency setting will correct 'phase cancellation'!!!

Please do take time to patiently read the other threads in the ICE section. There is a wealth of information here, from people who can teach the theory and practice of the subject. 'Challenging' is not a deterrent nor a driver here.
I did mention how phase issue due to wrong crossover setting can be fixed by adjusting crossover.




Because for a base I have explained my part.

In the end all that matter is how it sounds

I read and have read lot of informative threads in this forum. It helped me a lot. Actually I would like to meet many of the sq gurus here to gain more knowledge.

For me challenge is a driver since I do this everyday for living.
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Old 16th May 2013, 12:19   #12097
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
I did mention how phase issue due to wrong crossover setting can be fixed by adjusting crossover. ...
Sorry, didn't find anything that talked of correcting "phase cancellation" by frequency setting.

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... For me challenge is a driver since I do this everyday for living.
Those who do it as a business, do not take on 'challenging' as a driver - conventional logic. There is a saying in Hindi, which - roughly translated - says "If a horse were to fall in love with grass, what will it eat"
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Old 16th May 2013, 14:02   #12098
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

This is understood.
When you set the crossover at 80hz, it means the frequency is already attenuated -3db at 80hz.


If someone has a particular issue I can suggest some ideas.

If you would like to see how this works. Get some 0db test tones of 40hz , 50hz, 63hz , 80hz, 100hz, 120hz and head to your car. Try the steps I mentioned for tuning in reverse. You will know if there is a region of cancellation in your system.

For me every project is a challenge because we try to better ourselves in ever build and learn from each of our projects

And when are into audio competition in National level we can't just not take challenges.
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Old 16th May 2013, 14:35   #12099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
When there is a sub with separate amp there can be phase issues. At that point an adjustable crossover comes in handy than a fixed switch. I faced this issue several times during installs on these amps.

Anyways most of the head units have Hi pass filter settings with steeper slope than amps these days.
Most crossovers introduce phase change. In the subwoofer region a small phase change (as much as 90 deg) is not audible unless one is not driving the car and is evaluating the car in a " competition setting".

Most HUs that have subwoofer (LPF) settings often also have a option to set phase to either 0 deg or 180 deg. This helps most installs. There are amps however (especially subwoofer amplifiers) that allow the installer to control level, frequency, slope and even compensate for phase. I have not seen the JBL or Kenwood models discussed earlier so I cannot say for certain what controls either of these amps have. But because most subwoofer amplifiers have these controls and because having a separate subwoofer amplifier ensures that a bass transient does not suck the energy out of the rest,of the musical spectrum (since the two amps have separate power supplies) I would recommend a subwoofer amp if the install can afford it. For smaller installs a 4 ch amp is adequate besides few such smaller installs are going to be used in a "competition setting".

Hence if one really wants to compensate for phase one would most likely require a multiple amp install - one amp for the front and rear speakers and a second amp for the subwoofer ( of course one can add more amps if required - the sky is the limit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Sorry, didn't find anything that talked of correcting "phase cancellation" by frequency setting.
DA, I presume General Neo meant phase compensation. Be aware that the phase knob on most car amplifiers are very general. They do not offer the degree of phase compensation as DSPs do.

General Neo, nice to see professionals posting on TBHP. I am sure we can learn a lot from your REAL WORLD experiences. In my experience (I am neither a professional nor an expert) most car installs require a simple HU+Amp+Sub+4 speakers. Most of us drive our cars in traffic and would rarely be aware of phase cancellation or even minor frequency response aberrations. A competition is another thing. BTW which car audio competitions are you referring to?

This thread has gone a bit astray. Lets use our collective knowledge to help fellow members na?
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Old 16th May 2013, 15:06   #12100
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

Quote:
Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... You will know if there is a region of cancellation in your system. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
... DA, I presume General Neo meant phase compensation. ...
The problem, I realize now, is a difference between conventional terminology and what @general_neo is using. Happens! By 'cancellation' he must be meaning 'hole' or a 'dip' in the F response of the system - not related with 'phase'. 'Phase cancellation' due to losses by mixing of outputs with different phases in the same frequency range (most commonly due to one speaker out of 2 connected with wrong polarity) would also produce the same 'hole' or 'dip' in F response if measured.

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Originally Posted by general_neo View Post
... And when are into audio competition in National level we can't just not take challenges. ...
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Old 16th May 2013, 15:43   #12101
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

Dear I.C.E gurus,

I just bought a new Eon Magna+ for my wife which comes with an integrated head unit with 2 front speakers of 160 W. Now, I want to spruce it up further with a budget of around 5K(little flexible).

Your advices please....consider me as a dumb head when it comes to I.C.E. terminologies. I have tried to search for relevant threads but got confused :(.

Thanks, in advance.
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Old 16th May 2013, 15:48   #12102
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Sir Navin, I have been reading your posts from ages. It has helped if not guided people like me to set things right.

I understood discussion is gone astray hence my previous post saying I can help if some has issues. Just let me answer your points and stay away to avoid further damaged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Most crossovers introduce phase change. In the subwoofer region a small phase change (as much as 90 deg) is not audible unless one is not driving the car and is evaluating the car in a " competition setting".
Adding to your point. If there is a crossover be it active or passive (BW or LR) there is a phase change.

This phase change added to a slight overlap on crossover settings will affect certain type of music. Even if there is no overlap on physically crossover settings there will be still overlap in actual frequencies when playing music

Anyways always better to use the 24db crossover attenuation on the HU to solve complicated phase issues!

(Related to competition)
And when we show a demo car with competition settings, the person who is listening would expect the same to be replicated on his competition capable daily driven car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Most HUs that have subwoofer (LPF) settings often also have a option to set phase to either 0 deg or 180 deg. This helps most installs.
Again adding your point.
The confusing factor here is,
On the Headunit the Subwoofer option have setting called "Reverse" (Pioneer).
And on the subwoofer amplifier it says 0 - 180degrees Phase.

If we take the actually meaning. Both are not the same.

Technically, Reverse is reverse polarity, like reversing the polarity on the sub.

When you say phase change by 180, its kind of moving/switching the phase by 180 degrees in reference to time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Hence if one really wants to compensate for phase one would most likely require a multiple amp install - one amp for the front and rear speakers and a second amp for the subwoofer ( of course one can add more amps if required - the sky is the limit).
Adding to your point.
Or a Headunit or processor that can do this part and let amps do the amplification only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
General Neo, nice to see professionals posting on TBHP. I am sure we can learn a lot from your REAL WORLD experiences. In my experience (I am neither a professional nor an expert) most car installs require a simple HU+Amp+Sub+4 speakers. Most of us drive our cars in traffic and would rarely be aware of phase cancellation or even minor frequency response aberrations.
I do agree I have good real world experiences. Professionalism is something my customer should say about me.


Our builds are the efforts of multiple individuals.

For example in our team.
I do the system design, integration, enclosure designs, wiring, Base tuning, Quality check.
Fabrication and physical installation is done by someone else
Final SQ tuning and settings is done by another person.

If the customer goes by our recommendation on products and install, we don't care whether there is traffic or earthquake, the system should sound ultimate. Sometimes tuning without processor goes over a day.
This might not make the owner happy at that moment, but it does make us happy that the job is done properly.

When delivering a project I am always on my heels because what might sound awesome to us might not be the customer preference. We are talking about things that we don't see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
A competition is another thing. BTW which car audio competitions are you referring to?



I am currently based in UAE and here we have EMMA Arabia (European multimedia association). We have some times international judges coming to judge the cars. And we have been having some winning SQ, SPL and ESQL cars from the shop.

Sorry to go astray. Back to the subject.

Once again for everyone's information.


Quote:
The whole issue would only be a concern if

You are on a budget for your car audio project!
However you have a high end home audio, plus you have good ears (know your music).

You decide to do your car audio project using a 4 channel amplifier. (not change the headunit, have a sub on the same amp or separate amp)

and you have a choice in between JBL X646 or Kenwood M846 amplifier.

Thus you us ask the following question.

If price was really close which one of the two amps would we suggest.

I suggested JBL and DerAlte suggested kenwood. We ensued a discussion to know whether my views are really valid.

For the user k2max6 <--- Both would work as he has good headunit 7016. This has 24db attenuation capability and TA. So basically he would turn the HPF and lpf to off or max out on the amp
Thank you all for listening.
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Old 16th May 2013, 16:23   #12103
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitinhegde View Post
... new Eon Magna+ ... comes with an integrated head unit with 2 front speakers ... budget of around 5K(little flexible). ...
With that budget, the simplest you can do is to change the OE speakers to a decent pair of components. Infinity, JBL, Polk, Morel, ... there are lots of them costing ~ 6K.

Do audition the components before you buy - you may not like some.
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Old 16th May 2013, 16:45   #12104
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

Thanks DerAlte, Should I go for 2 speakers at the rear and keep the front as is? This is what I did for my Ikon and it has worked well till date or should I replace the front with 2 new or maybe buy 4(2 at front n rear each)? Wht's the optimal capacity for a car sized like Eon...
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Old 16th May 2013, 17:13   #12105
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

Gurus, need help for my Punto ICE setup. My current setup is as below.

Fiat OEM HU, JBL GTO 608 Comps in front, Hertz Coaxials at rear, Cervin Vega HED 600.4 ( With speaker level input ), Rockford Fosgate R1 sub, basic damping done to all 4 doors.

My music preferences:- Classic Rock, Bollywood peppy songs, mostly bass heavy music like Gorillaz.

Currently the above setup sounds decent, but I am still not happy with it. I am assuming that the OEM HU is the culprit here. If I were to sell everything off from the current setup (Including HU) and start from scratch with a budget of 20 Ks, what would be an ideal setup for me?. In the new setup I would love to have USB,BT and TA, CD/DVD is not mandatory, however I would like to retain the steering controls.

Thanks in advance.
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