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Old 16th August 2013, 17:49   #12241
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Given that the OE speakers are usually insipid and constrained, the most immediate gain would come from replacing the front OE speakers with a pair of good components. It is OK to add the damping when he is adding an amp and possibly a sub.
Understood. But it may make sense to disturb the panels just once to get the damping done when replacing the front OE speakers - to also allow them to give of their best straight away.
Personally, I am not a fan of subs - does it even make sense to add an amplifier if a sub isn't being added? SQ enhancement for the rear seats isn't a big/immediate need.
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Old 16th August 2013, 18:42   #12242
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Understood. But it may make sense to disturb the panels just once to get the damping done when replacing the front OE speakers - to also allow them to give of their best straight away.
Personally, I am not a fan of subs - does it even make sense to add an amplifier if a sub isn't being added? SQ enhancement for the rear seats isn't a big/immediate need.
If you really want your components to give out the effect they are meant for, then yes a Amp is a Must!
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Old 16th August 2013, 21:35   #12243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Understood. But it may make sense to disturb the panels just once to get the damping done when replacing the front OE speakers - to also allow them to give of their best straight away.
Personally, I am not a fan of subs - does it even make sense to add an amplifier if a sub isn't being added? SQ enhancement for the rear seats isn't a big/immediate need.
You are right. If you are upgrading front speakers then might as well damp the front doors. The converse is also true.

An amp will help only if your son finds the HU not being able to drive the speakers to an "enjoyable" level and if the increased control in bass is noticed by him. A sub can go a lot lower than door or even typical rear deck speakers. It also relieves the door speakers from having to reproduce the lowest octave or 2. Lastly a good sealed box subwoofer can deliver better QUALITY of bass than typical rear deck 6x9s and go lower too.

Last edited by navin : 16th August 2013 at 21:36.
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Old 16th August 2013, 22:41   #12244
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You are right. If you are upgrading front speakers then might as well damp the front doors. The converse is also true.

An amp will help only if your son finds the HU not being able to drive the speakers to an "enjoyable" level and if the increased control in bass is noticed by him. A sub can go a lot lower than door or even typical rear deck speakers. It also relieves the door speakers from having to reproduce the lowest octave or 2. Lastly a good sealed box subwoofer can deliver better QUALITY of bass than typical rear deck 6x9s and go lower too.
I think even I'm having the same issue deciding, with my car also being the Civic. The thing is, the paper cone speakers in the Civic are decent but lack bass. So if the need of the hour is a staggered upgrade, then what solution provides the best experience, good sound quality with decent bass?

1. Change front to components and add an amp?
2. Front to components and add a sub?
3. Add a sub and amp and leave stock speakers alone for the time being?

P.S - Am sure a lot of civic owners here have updated their music setups. So can the OEM HU do a decent job or an amp is a must if one goes for components?

Last edited by coolkurt : 16th August 2013 at 22:43. Reason: More info
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Old 16th August 2013, 22:45   #12245
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by coolkurt View Post
I think even I'm having the same issue deciding, with my car also being the Civic. The thing is, the paper cone speakers in the Civic are decent but lack bass. So if the need of the hour is a staggered upgrade, then what solution provides the best experience, good sound quality with decent bass?

1. Change front to components and add an amp?
2. Front to components and add a sub?
3. Add a sub and amp and leave stock speakers alone for the time being?
If budget is not a issue, get a 4 Channel Amp and get a Sub and component.

Otherwise if you Bass is more what you are looking for get a Sub and Mono amp, then in the future change the speakers and subsequently get a 4 Channel AMP.

Option 3 is best for Bass and option 1 is good if you are Music lover
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Old 17th August 2013, 00:24   #12246
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

Hello!

Details on current setup:

Car: '11 Linea tjet
HU: stock, allegedly 30W x 4, not sure if it's the Delphi or Blaupunkt make.
Speakers: Focal Polyglass 165 VB components in front and 165 CVX coaxials at the rear
Music I listen to: varies depending on the season; currently basking in the vibes of DnB, trance. I listen to other genres like metal, jazz, blues, hiphop, sometimes classical (western and Indian). Never country music.

Until a few nights ago, I was on the lookout for a DSP-cum-amplifier and had almost decided on JBL MS-8 when some more reading up left me more confused.


DSP-cum-amplifier OR DSP now and amplifier later OR only DSP?

For one, I'm not sure if the auto tune would be done "right" (based on reviews across the net).
Two: the manual that came along with my Focal speakers says:

Quote:
A safe guide is to ensure the maximum power of the amplifier is not greater than the nominal power of the speakers.
And the specs of the speakers are:

Quote:
165 VB: max power: 140W, nominal power (= RMS?): 70W, sensitivity: 93dB, freq. response: 60Hz-28kHz, impedance: 4ohms

165 CVX: same as above except freq. response: 60Hz-20kHz
Assuming that the HU's RMS power rating is 30W, its peak should be 45-60W (less than 70W of speakers)? Do I stand to gain much by installing an amplifier for the speakers?

JBL MS-8's amp's RMS power rating is 18W x 8 (@ 4 ohms): isn't that low for my speakers?

I was looking at a DSP primarily because I want to retain my stock HU and "clean" the source. (I can differentiate this HU's SQ from my Getz's Panasonic HU, it's that "unclean").

Can I just make do with a DSP (and no amplifier accompanying it for the Focal speakers)?


Need for a sub-woofer

I'm starting to realise that I'll require this for my kind of listening. As the previous few posts mention, it'd be good to let the components and coaxials handle the "punch" and dedicate a subwoofer to handle the low lows. I'd prefer it if the enclosure is "factory-made".

Lastly, considering that I'd like to take this up in stages (for instance (tweak this if necessary):
stage 1: subwoofer (+ its own mono amp?)
stage 2: DSP (or DSP-cum-amplifier or DSP and a dedicated 2ch or 4ch amplifier for speakers)) with budget of < 50k per stage, what gear would you suggest?

Thanks!
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Old 17th August 2013, 01:02   #12247
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

Just damp the car doors + boot,use a high level input front+rear to a 4channel amplifier which can take hi-level input,add a mono and a subwoofer take the input from the rear hi-level input and tune the setup your done,the ms8 is a sheer waste.

Ramie
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Old 17th August 2013, 08:35   #12248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
You are right. If you are upgrading front speakers then might as well damp the front doors. The converse is also true.

An amp will help only if your son finds the HU not being able to drive the speakers to an "enjoyable" level and if the increased control in bass is noticed by him.
Great, thanks. My son will be away at sea for 6 months now, and I have to take the car to Goa in November, with an infant in the rear. My music tastes run towards jazz/acoustic vocals/indian classical, played at normal listening levels, on a high end and natural sounding 2 channel system at home. His tastes run more to pop/hip hop, but thankfully he doesn't care for the mobile dhol tasha sound effect either, so he is sure he will never install a sub. And plans to keep the car for another 5 years.
Given the above, I am planning an immediate upgrade to achieve better front seat SQ, perhaps with the rear speakers faded out. Since I am not familiar with the car audio scene, can you list out the items to be installed with brand/model names? Including an amplifier if that is what it will take to get the best from the front speaker upgrade, bearing in mind that in future, the amp will have to drive two upgraded rear speakers as well, but not a sub.
From a budget pov, I'd say around 12-15k for the front speaker change, plus extra for other needed components, amp, mats, and installation.
Poona Motors installed the 5590 and did a very neat job of it, so that is where I will do this install as well.
Thanks in advance!

Last edited by Sawyer : 17th August 2013 at 08:37.
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Old 17th August 2013, 10:29   #12249
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolkurt View Post
1. Change front to components and add an amp?
2. Front to components and add a sub?
3. Add a sub and amp and leave stock speakers alone for the time being?
Front an imaging and sound quality perspective option 1 would be best. Option 2 will not work as you need an amplifier to drive a sub so would need to add an amplifier AND a sub. From an SPL perspective option 3 will give you the most bang for the buck

Quote:
Originally Posted by nareshov View Post
Hello!

HU: stock
Speakers: Focal Polyglass 165 VB components in front and 165 CVX coaxials at the rear

JBL MS-8
For one, I'm not sure if the auto tune would be done "right"
JBL MS-8's amp's RMS power rating is 18W x 8 (@ 4 ohms): isn't that low for my speakers?

stage 1: subwoofer (+ its own mono amp?)
stage 2: DSP (or DSP-cum-amplifier or DSP and a dedicated 2ch or 4ch amplifier for speakers)) with budget of < 50k per stage, what gear would you suggest?
Most auto-tune's I have experienced have not satisfied me. In some cases I have had to trick the auto tune of the DSP to give me the sound that I want. I would recommend looking at a DSP that offers manual override of the auto tune or something like an Audision Bit 1.

Stage 1 is fine. You don't need a DSP for that stage expect that you will not be able to time align the subwoofer until a DSP is added.

Yes the MS8's 18W is rather limited but unless you are into playing music very loud it is adequate. I however prefer a separate DSP and amp partly because I can get a bigger amp and partly because the MS8's auto tune is very bright for my ears. Your taste might be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
My music tastes run towards jazz/acoustic vocals/indian classical, played at normal listening levels, on a high end and natural sounding 2 channel system at home. His tastes run more to pop/hip hop

Since I am not familiar with the car audio scene, can you list out the items to be installed with brand/model names

From a budget pov, I'd say around 12-15k for the front speaker change, plus extra for other needed components, amp, mats, and installation.
Poona Motors installed the 5590 and did a very neat job of it, so that is where I will do this install as well.
Thanks in advance!
I would consider a Kenwood, Pioneer, JBL or Focal 4 ch. amp and front components from Focal Polyglass, Rainbow SLC, Audison Voce or Image Dynamics CTX. The Model numbers chage so often that I have a hard time keep track.

A few threads like this one can help
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sound-...a-install.html
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Old 17th August 2013, 13:15   #12250
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Front an imaging and sound quality perspective option 1 would be best. Option 2 will not work as you need an amplifier to drive a sub so would need to add an amplifier AND a sub. From an SPL perspective option 3 will give you the most bang for the buck
Thanks for the reply. I'm also thinking of option 3, adding a sub and amp and keeping the stock speakers of the Civic for the time being. The only question that I wanted to ask was, will the stock paper cone speakers be able to handle the additional power from the amp?
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Old 17th August 2013, 19:15   #12251
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
I would consider a Kenwood, Pioneer, JBL or Focal 4 ch. amp and front components from Focal Polyglass, Rainbow SLC, Audison Voce or Image Dynamics CTX. The Model numbers chage so often that I have a hard time keep track.
Understood, thanks.
Using the numbers commonly used in the car audio segment, what should be the power rating of the amp per channel, and ditto for the front components?
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Old 17th August 2013, 22:57   #12252
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post

Understood, thanks.
Using the numbers commonly used in the car audio segment, what should be the power rating of the amp per channel, and ditto for the front components?
If you get an amp that is say 50W rms per channels, all 4 channels driven, @4ohms, 20-20kHz and that delivers 200w rms @ 4ohms when bridged you are doing fine. Most amps in this price range will fail to honestly meet the bridged spec. usually they top of 150W rms in bridged mode @ 4 ohms. That is still pretty decent and will drive a good 10-12" subwoofer to about 100db. The thing is you lose about 6db and the subwoofer is in the trunk and has to work through the rear seat. Fortunately what remains is still sufficient for all but the real bass heads.

Don't worry about power ratings for the speakers. Most are excursion limited not thermal power limited. Look for one that suits your tonal preference. Many come with transparent XO boxes so i look at the caps and inductors and the build quality of the drivers. How is the gluing done? Is the basket cast or stamped or moulded. If moulded or stamped does it resonate? If i get the chance i will feel for come flex in the mid-bass, the suspension of the tweeter dome, and other physical characteristics.

Of course nothing replaces a listening test.

Last edited by navin : 17th August 2013 at 23:02.
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Old 18th August 2013, 04:42   #12253
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Most amps in this price range will fail to honestly meet the bridged spec. usually they top of 150W rms in bridged mode @ 4 ohms. That is still pretty decent and will drive a good 10-12" subwoofer to about 100db.
Don't worry about power ratings for the speakers. Most are excursion limited not thermal power limited.
Thanks again. I won't ever be putting in a sub, so I think I know now what to look for.
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Old 18th August 2013, 07:05   #12254
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One follow up question on speakers. At home I have Harbeth speakers that are known for a house sound across the range that is natural, uncoloured and therefore listening fatigue free. Is there an equivalent brand that is similarly known for this kind of sound across its range?
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Old 18th August 2013, 08:46   #12255
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Thanks for the reply. I'm also thinking of option 3, adding a sub and amp and keeping the stock speakers of the Civic for the time being. The only question that I wanted to ask was, will the stock paper cone speakers be able to handle the additional power from the amp?
Will they be able to handle the additional power from the amp?
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