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Old 29th September 2009, 16:55   #16
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From what I understand the 5050 has 3 RCA outs that are for sub, front and rear. The rear outs cannot be used to biamp the front.

In this case you will have to use a passive XO (unless you want to biamp or triamp using an external active XO or maybe even the LPF/HPF networks of an amplifier).
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Old 29th September 2009, 17:52   #17
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
From what I understand the 5050 has 3 RCA outs that are for sub, front and rear. The rear outs cannot be used to biamp the front.

In this case you will have to use a passive XO (unless you want to biamp or triamp using an external active XO or maybe even the LPF/HPF networks of an amplifier).
OKi guru. In that case, i am more interested in going active than using those passive x-overs.

Please do eloborate on the highlighted part;
What and how exactly can i do this ?
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Old 29th September 2009, 21:47   #18
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the most common electronic crossover is made by audio control. they've been doing this for over 20 years. You can get a 2 way or 3 way crossover for your front channels. I would assume that audio control, PPI, or JL audio would have a XO that has TA built in (I have not checked their website so this is just a guess). If they have one of these might as well get the one with TA.

a cheaper way would be to get a 4 ch. amp that has a 2 way crossover inside it. Amps like the Kenwood Excelon XR-4S have a variable freq LPF from 50-500Hz and HPF from 2.5k to 10K. This would allow you to biamp the system but not triamp the system.
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Old 29th September 2009, 22:09   #19
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he can biamp as in use the woofers on 2 channels and the mids + highs on 2 .
It would be like a biamp.
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Old 30th September 2009, 08:44   #20
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Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
he can biamp as in use the woofers on 2 channels and the mids + highs on 2 .
It would be like a biamp.
But was'nt that my initial plan?
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...ml#post1504410
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Old 30th September 2009, 09:47   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
Yes. Which amp did you have in mind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
he can biamp as in use the woofers on 2 channels and the mids + highs on 2 .
It would be like a biamp.
It would be biamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
a cheaper way would be to get a 4 ch. amp that has a 2 way crossover inside it. Amps like the Kenwood Excelon XR-4S have a variable freq LPF from 50-500Hz and HPF from 2.5k to 10K. This would allow you to biamp the system but not triamp the system.
I need to correct my earlier statement. If you intend to use the amplifier's internal crossover then the amplifier's LPF and HPF must cover the same range. The Kenwood was a BADA example leaving a hole between 500Hz and 2.5KHz if you LPFed at 500 and HPFed at 2.5k. Wht you need is an amp that can HPF and LPF at the same freq. (for 2 ways this will be around 3kHz and for 3 ways where the mid-tweeter XO is passive this will be around 700Hz) depending on the frequencies that the woofer, tweeter, midrange (for 3 ways only) are comfortable with.
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Old 30th September 2009, 11:56   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Yes. Which amp did you have in mind?



It would be biamp.



I need to correct my earlier statement. If you intend to use the amplifier's internal crossover then the amplifier's LPF and HPF must cover the same range. The Kenwood was a BADA example leaving a hole between 500Hz and 2.5KHz if you LPFed at 500 and HPFed at 2.5k. Wht you need is an amp that can HPF and LPF at the same freq. (for 2 ways this will be around 3kHz and for 3 ways where the mid-tweeter XO is passive this will be around 700Hz) depending on the frequencies that the woofer, tweeter, midrange (for 3 ways only) are comfortable with.
I ll penn down what i have in mind, do let me know if its a feasible model or not.

Option 1: Triamping the 3-way components

I have two 4-Ch amps. A GTA-480 (75 RMS x4 ) and the Infinity kappa 4 (125 RMS x 4).

For the 6.5" Woofer - I am giving inputs from Kappa4 (125 RMS x 2)
For the 4" Mid-Voice - I am giving inputs from GTA480 (75 RMS x 2)
For the Tweeters - I am giving inputs again from GTA480 (75RMS x 2)
The other 2 channels of the Kappa 4 can be used to power 1 Sub (lesser than or equal to 300 RMS)

Now that it seems for the front compos, i cant use the rear preout in that case I can only use the front Preout. Which i guess may need three Y-Connectors. Hence lot of scope for the alternmator noise to creep in. Also a lot of wiring and connection are to be made making it a total confusion oriented approach.

Option 2: Biamping the 3 way components

I have two 4-Ch amps. A GTA-480 (75 RMS x4 ) and the Infinity kappa 4 (125 RMS x 4).

Now i understand that tweeters actually need lesser power to run than the woofers or midbasses. Hence, i am using passive crossovers for separating only the Mids and Highs
For the 6.5" Woofer - I am giving inputs from Kappa4 (125 RMS x 2)
For the 4" Mid-Voice and tweets - I am giving inputs from Kappa4 (125 RMS x 2) using passive crossovers
The Other Amp prob can be used to power to Subs (lesser than or equal to 200 RMS x 2)

Here if you see, i am in need of just 1 Y connector, hence lesser probability of noise and relativley easier wiring. I understand that this method is probably not a fully active set-up

Ok I have 1 basic question, are there head units with electronic crossovers built in ? Or i should i use external electronic crossovers or use the Electronic crossovers buuilt i Amp (this last option, i guess wont fit in my scheme of things, as i ahve already invested in two 4 ch amps)

Please let me know your suggestions and recommendations
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Old 30th September 2009, 14:49   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10;1507940
I have two 4-Ch amps. A GTA-480 (75 RMS x4 ) and the Infinity kappa 4 (125 RMS x 4).
For the 6.5" Woofer - I am giving inputs from Kappa4 (125 RMS x 2)
For the 4" Mid-Voice - I am giving inputs from GTA480 (75 RMS x 2)
For the Tweeters - I am giving inputs again from GTA480 (75RMS x 2)
The other 2 channels of the Kappa 4 can be used to power 1 Sub (lesser than or equal to 300 RMS)

Now that it seems for the front compos, i cant use the rear preout in that case I can only use the front Preout. Which i guess may need three Y-Connectors. Hence lot of scope for the alternmator noise to creep in. Also a lot of wiring and connection are to be made making it a total confusion oriented approach.

[B
Option 2: Biamping the 3 way components[/b]
I have two 4-Ch amps. A GTA-480 (75 RMS x4 ) and the Infinity kappa 4 (125 RMS x 4).

Now i understand that tweeters actually need lesser power to run than the woofers or midbasses. Hence, i am using passive crossovers for separating only the Mids and Highs
For the 6.5" Woofer - I am giving inputs from Kappa4 (125 RMS x 2)
For the 4" Mid-Voice and tweets - I am giving inputs from Kappa4 (125 RMS x 2) using passive crossovers
The Other Amp prob can be used to power to Subs (lesser than or equal to 200 RMS x 2)

Here if you see, i am in need of just 1 Y connector, hence lesser probability of noise and relativley easier wiring. I understand that this method is probably not a fully active set-up

Ok I have 1 basic question, are there head units with electronic crossovers built in ? Or i should i use external electronic crossovers or use the Electronic crossovers buuilt i Amp (this last option, i guess wont fit in my scheme of things, as i ahve already invested in two 4 ch amps)

Please let me know your suggestions and recommendations
Mi10. When I said that some HUs do not allow you to use the rear channels for the front I was talking about HUs where you were using the internal XO of the HU. In this case you are NOT using the internal XO of the HU.

Before you start wiring please can you list out the XOs provided in the Infinity Kappa 4 and Blau 480 amps. From what I remember the Kappa 4 XO only goes as high as 300Hz or so.

Also Which Mid and tweeter are you using and what are the recomended XO poits for these drivers. I assume you are using the Hertz components discussed earlier but I want to make sure we are all on the same page.

pardon my slow deliberate approach but the object here is to evaluate the best solution that is also simplest (so as to elimiate or reduce possiblities of electrical noise and ground loops entering the system).
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Old 30th September 2009, 15:13   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Mi10. When I said that some HUs do not allow you to use the rear channels for the front I was talking about HUs where you were using the internal XO of the HU. In this case you are NOT using the internal XO of the HU.

Before you start wiring please can you list out the XOs provided in the Infinity Kappa 4 and Blau 480 amps. From what I remember the Kappa 4 XO only goes as high as 300Hz or so.

Also Which Mid and tweeter are you using and what are the recomended XO poits for these drivers. I assume you are using the Hertz components discussed earlier but I want to make sure we are all on the same page.

pardon my slow deliberate approach but the object here is to evaluate the best solution that is also simplest (so as to elimiate or reduce possiblities of electrical noise and ground loops entering the system).

Tech Specs of kappa 4:
Built-in Crossover Low-pass (LP), High-pass (HP)
High-Pass Crossover Frequency 32 - 320 Hz
Low-Pass Crossover Frequency 32 - 320 Hz

Tech Specs of GTA 480

High-pass filter crossover frequency (Hz): 50 - 250
High-pass filter edge steepness (dB/Octave): 12
Low-pass filter crossover frequency (Hz): 50 - 250
Low-pass filter edge steepness (dB/Octave): 12
Bass Boost setting range (dB): 0 - 12


Yes, The Speakers are 3 way components from Hertz (ESK 163L)

Tweeter:

Power Handling - continuous 100W@3,5kHz
Frequency Hz 2k - 23k

Woofer:
Power Handling - continuous 70 Watt
Frequency Hz 60-8k


Midrange

Power Handling - continuous 75 Watt

FrequencyHz 400 - 14,5k

Last edited by Mi10 : 30th September 2009 at 15:23. Reason: Formatting
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Old 1st October 2009, 11:40   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
High-Pass Crossover Frequency 32 - 320 Hz

Tech Specs of GTA 480
High-pass filter crossover frequency (Hz): 50 - 250
High-pass filter edge steepness (dB/Octave): 12

Yes, The Speakers are 3 way components from Hertz (ESK 163L)
Midrange
Power Handling - continuous 75 Watt
FrequencyHz 400 - 14,5k
This is what I feared. This mid will not be happy below 400Hz preferably 500Hz/12db would be a minimm. However neither of your amps has a HP higher than 320Hz. So if you use the Kappa to feed the Mid you will be a bit safer (than if you used the Blau) but you could push the mid beyond it's excursion capabilities.

With these amp choices you should get an external XO or atleast fabricate a bass blocker at say 750Hz using 2 100uf caps in series and a good 1-2uf polystere cap across both of them (in parallel to the series combo). This will offer a shallow slope of only 6db but you are XOing a bit higher too so it should be ok from a protection point of view.

So even if you use the Infinity at 320Hz HPF the bass blcoker will provide some protection for your midrnage. Now the problem will be the shallow hole you will get between 320Hz LPF (that is as high as the Inifinity will allow the woofers to go) and the HPF 750hz/6db bass blocker. This area is very critical for male voices, guitars etc.. where a lot of rock music's energy is and you will forced to knock off about an octave to protect the mid.

Other alternate is to bypass all the XOs in the amps and get an external XO or get an amp with HPF and LPF at say 600-700Hz.
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Old 1st October 2009, 13:35   #26
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
This is what I feared. This mid will not be happy below 400Hz preferably 500Hz/12db would be a minimm. However neither of your amps has a HP higher than 320Hz. So if you use the Kappa to feed the Mid you will be a bit safer (than if you used the Blau) but you could push the mid beyond it's excursion capabilities.

With these amp choices you should get an external XO or atleast fabricate a bass blocker at say 750Hz using 2 100uf caps in series and a good 1-2uf polystere cap across both of them (in parallel to the series combo). This will offer a shallow slope of only 6db but you are XOing a bit higher too so it should be ok from a protection point of view.

So even if you use the Infinity at 320Hz HPF the bass blcoker will provide some protection for your midrnage. Now the problem will be the shallow hole you will get between 320Hz LPF (that is as high as the Inifinity will allow the woofers to go) and the HPF 750hz/6db bass blocker. This area is very critical for male voices, guitars etc.. where a lot of rock music's energy is and you will forced to knock off about an octave to protect the mid.

Other alternate is to bypass all the XOs in the amps and get an external XO or get an amp with HPF and LPF at say 600-700Hz.
Oh Ho..Any way which is a cheaper alternative? Getting a matching Amp or getting an External XO or...getting a matching 3-way Compos
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Old 1st October 2009, 15:25   #27
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or better, get a hu which has 3 way capabilities.
Alpine 9887/Pioneer P80RS/Clarion DXZ 785USB
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Old 1st October 2009, 15:40   #28
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option 1.
get components where the mid can go as low as 250-300Hz/12db safely.

option 2.
get amps that have HPF and LPF as high as 500Hz/12db atleast (700Hz is prefered)

option 3.
use the bass blocker and live with the limitations of the shallow but wide suck out in the 300-750Hz region.

I have listed the options in my order of preference. Obviously option 1 is the most expensive...and option 3 is the cheapest espeicalliy if you already have all the amps and speaker components.

edit: actually a new HU might be cheaper than components where the mid can go as low as 300Hz like the Legatia from Hybrid.

Last edited by navin : 1st October 2009 at 15:45.
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Old 1st October 2009, 16:42   #29
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option 1.
get components where the mid can go as low as 250-300Hz/12db safely.

option 2.
get amps that have HPF and LPF as high as 500Hz/12db atleast (700Hz is prefered)

option 3.
use the bass blocker and live with the limitations of the shallow but wide suck out in the 300-750Hz region.

I have listed the options in my order of preference. Obviously option 1 is the most expensive...and option 3 is the cheapest espeicalliy if you already have all the amps and speaker components.

edit: actually a new HU might be cheaper than components where the mid can go as low as 300Hz like the Legatia from Hybrid.
OK now if i rule out option 2 and 3, which of the below makes a better proposition?

1. Get a set of matching Compos
2. Go for the HU upgarde (what ever Abhi has mention here)

i know it would be best to do both, but i still come under salaried class, who have to wait for 30 days to pass before buying anything.

So please do let me know which one ofthe option is better suited
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Old 1st October 2009, 17:09   #30
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I prefer option 1 but option 2 will be cheaper. A set of 3 way components where the mid can go down to 300Hz is not common.

The other option is to get 6" woofers for the door and mate them to a set of 4" 2 way components. In this option you will be sacrificing the alacrity of a true 3.5-4" midrange for the low midrange response and power handling of a 4" midbass but such is life. You can use the amp gain to calibrate the 6" woofer's level to that of the 4" midbass+tweeeter combo. The other problem (other than the alacrity of the midrange) I see is that most 4" midbass drivers are considerably deeper than 3.5-4" midrange drivers and you might have some minor trouble and/or alterations to make to fit this combo in your door.
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