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Old 3rd October 2009, 15:58   #46
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Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
Was just wondering, if going fully active with a 2 way compos makes more sense and less hassle free

Yes it would.
Its easier to install.
however you will have to fiddle with the tuning a lot but it would be easier than a 3 way as i believe.

It would require less/no modification.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 18:53   #47
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Was just wondering, if going fully active with a 2 way compos makes more sense and less hassle free
sure it will be less hassle but hey I thought you were in this for the challenge!
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Old 3rd October 2009, 19:12   #48
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sure it will be less hassle but hey I thought you were in this for the challenge!
Yes, i am very much in. I was just "wondering"

OK, i am goin to go slow and steady on this.
First things first - upgrade HU
So most probly' i'd be picking it in US (hopefully Thanks giving day gives good discounts)
Now My first options are the 9887 and P800-RS and maybe the CD 7200MKII (if it comes within my budget during sale)
Others in consideration, P880-RS and X993
Now whats the big difference between the P800RS and the P880RS?
Also, how good is the X993?

Next plan of Action:
i guess i have no easy way out here, other than to go passive between the mids and highs. So in that case i ll be using only 4 channels for my front stage.

Now i guess i ll go for a 2-way compo (mostly the ESK165 or ESK 165L) for the rear stage. This again will be an active setup and hence 4 more channels of Amplification.

Now for the Sub, think i would goin for a new mono or a powerful 2Ch (depending on Budget)

Considering that i am using the HU XO, i ll have to use 2 Y connectors from the front Preout, 2 for the rear preout and use the Sub preout directly
Also, since some many cables and wiring are to happen, would it make sense to go for HU's with copper chasis ?
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Old 3rd October 2009, 19:20   #49
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Next plan of Action:
i guess i have no easy way out here, other than to go passive between the mids and highs. So in that case i ll be using only 4 channels for my front stage.

Now i guess i ll go for a 2-way compo (mostly the ESK165 or ESK 165L) for the rear stage.
components for the rear stage make sense if the components are going to in front of the rear listener like in the rear doors.

Keep in mind that in such an install the tweeter of the rear component is often closer to the ear of the front passengers than the front tweeter so if there are only front passengers fade almost completely to the front and if there are only rear passengers (except the chauffer) fade to the rear but if you have 4 or more passengers then you will require to do a very careful front-rear fade.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 20:24   #50
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components for the rear stage make sense if the components are going to in front of the rear listener like in the rear doors.

Keep in mind that in such an install the tweeter of the rear component is often closer to the ear of the front passengers than the front tweeter so if there are only front passengers fade almost completely to the front and if there are only rear passengers (except the chauffer) fade to the rear but if you have 4 or more passengers then you will require to do a very careful front-rear fade.
Yes, the rear stage are to be mounted in doors only.
By the way which HU? Please guide me as i am novice to serious ICE
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Old 4th October 2009, 02:10   #51
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Yes, the rear stage are to be mounted in doors only.
By the way which HU? Please guide me as i am novice to serious ICE
That's a good way to start with the Headunit. All 3 HU's that you mentioned are great. But you could choose either the Alpine and the Eclipse. Also, while choosing make sure to note what's lowest freq. point the HU has under the "HIGH" setting. some are limited around 600hz. and since you are planning to play the mids and tweeter through passive xover you may want to consider this. Something that can go as low as atleast 200hz will be good. Clarions can go down to 25hz under the Highs setting. If the pioneer can go down that low would be good choice since it also comes with individual left and right Graphic Equaliser.
For rear stage you could mount the tweeter close to the midbass.
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Old 4th October 2009, 02:21   #52
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Yes, the rear stage are to be mounted in doors only.
By the way which HU? Please guide me as i am novice to serious ICE
Frank I think has experience with the Eclipse 7200, Alpine 9887 and maybe even the Clarion. He chose the Eclipse of these 3. I have an Alpine 9887 (actually it is my mom's) and we prefer Alpines as for over 20 years we have been using Alpines are are comfortable with the controls.

If you are new to all 3 I would suggest the Eclipse. Mind you the Clarion 785 is another favourite with TBHPians hoever it does not have EU tuning so cant tune in even numbered station like 91.0 or 94.6.

Last edited by navin : 4th October 2009 at 02:22.
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Old 4th October 2009, 06:55   #53
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Frank I think has experience with the Eclipse 7200, Alpine 9887 and maybe even the Clarion. He chose the Eclipse of these 3. I have an Alpine 9887 (actually it is my mom's) and we prefer Alpines as for over 20 years we have been using Alpines are are comfortable with the controls.

If you are new to all 3 I would suggest the Eclipse. Mind you the Clarion 785 is another favourite with TBHPians hoever it does not have EU tuning so cant tune in even numbered station like 91.0 or 94.6.
Crossover settings:
PRS - 50 HZ - 200 HZ
9887 - 20HZ - 200HZ
CD 7200MKII - ??

Meaning, PRS cant get to frequencies below 50HZ is it?
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Old 4th October 2009, 08:45   #54
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Crossover settings:
PRS - 50 HZ - 200 HZ
9887 - 20HZ - 200HZ
CD 7200MKII - ??

Meaning, PRS cant get to frequencies below 50HZ is it?
No this means that Pio does not believe you will need to XO below 50Hz (very reasonable).
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Old 5th October 2009, 12:44   #55
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Mi10 is willing to go passive between the mid and tweeter. So 3 way is fine.
he should only go passive between the mid and tweeter IF he intends to use a different crossover from the one that came with the three way kit, or if he is going to build a custom crossover for those drivers that he intends to run passive

once again this is due to the fact that passive crossovers with drivers left out of the circuit will create a short circuit to the amplifier at certain frequencies especially if the slope is at 12db/oct (2nd order filter) and in order to demonstrate this i have started a thread over at DIYMA ... please note the reply from Andy Wehmeyer which is basically what i was alluding to, and also note the link over to the ESP site (elliot sound products)

so that you can read what is said at both, here are links to those

passive crossovers - DIY Mobile Audio

quote from Rod Elliot

Quote:
A word of warning is worthwhile here. Never operate an amplifier into a crossover network with the drivers disconnected. It may be tempting to look at the response, but at a frequency equal to the series resonant frequency of the inductor and capacitor, the network may present almost a dead short circuit to the amplifier (depending on the filter type - second order filters are the greatest risk).


at this link here


Passive Crossover Network Design

but read Andy Wehmeyers response at DIYMA, he says essentially the same thing as Elliot before i posted on what elliot said .... and both of those guys know a bit about audio

end result is that if there is an impedance compensation circuit in that passive crossover and if its a second order filter (12db/oct slope) then the odds are that you will blow the crossover

the other alternative is if the passive was designed for passive bi-amping in which instance its most likely a case of removing a jumper and you can use it perfectly well enough

so if he does use a mixture of active/passive i take it that he isnt going to be using the passive crossover that came with the speakers because if that is the plan then he needs to make another new plan IMHO
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Old 5th October 2009, 13:42   #56
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he should only go passive between the mid and tweeter IF he intends to use a different crossover from the one that came with the three way kit, or if he is going to build a custom crossover for those drivers that he intends to run passive

once again this is due to the fact that passive crossovers with drivers left out of the circuit will create a short circuit to the amplifier at certain frequencies especially if the slope is at 12db/oct (2nd order filter) and in order to demonstrate this i have started a thread over at DIYMA ... please note the reply from Andy Wehmeyer which is basically what i was alluding to, and also note the link over to the ESP site (elliot sound products)

so that you can read what is said at both, here are links to those

passive crossovers - DIY Mobile Audio

quote from Rod Elliot



at this link here

Passive Crossover Network Design

but read Andy Wehmeyers response at DIYMA, he says essentially the same thing as Elliot before i posted on what elliot said .... and both of those guys know a bit about audio

end result is that if there is an impedance compensation circuit in that passive crossover and if its a second order filter (12db/oct slope) then the odds are that you will blow the crossover

the other alternative is if the passive was designed for passive bi-amping in which instance its most likely a case of removing a jumper and you can use it perfectly well enough

so if he does use a mixture of active/passive i take it that he isnt going to be using the passive crossover that came with the speakers because if that is the plan then he needs to make another new plan IMHO
Gotcha point

So. if i am to use this semi-Active model (passive between mids and high) i just cant use the 3-way XO that came along.

i either need to hunt for a 2-way XO that can split mids and highs or build a custom one.

Now consider this,
say i am driving the XO's from the HU. irrespetive of what my Amp's XO's are, can i go for a fully active setup ? If yes, then i am game for it
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Old 5th October 2009, 15:38   #57
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i either need to hunt for a 2-way XO that can split mids and highs or build a custom one.
100% - but you cannot just use any old crossover here, the company who built the speakers have an idea of how their speaker drivers react to different slopes and crossover points as well as changes to phase etc and also probably could have additional bits of features in a crossover like attenuation for tweeters etc that would probably be missing in another brand of passive crossover, so in this instance i would recommended everything being done active because with an active crossover you could select the crossover points and slopes to more or less replicate what was happening in the original passive but you will have the advantage of feeding different amounts of power to each driver as well as adjustable levels

you could still use a headunit that has three way adjustability like the pioneer, or the alpine 9887 and complement that with getting a multichannel amplifier with a built in crossover which can adjust to the points you require

so your system configuration could be for example if you had an alpine 9887 (im using the alpine as an example cos i have one of those so its easy for me to recommend settings, but im sure the pioneer or the clarion could easily replicate those settings)

sub output - lowpassed at maybe 60 to 80 hz (depending where you like it)
mid output - bandpassed by highpassing between 60 to 80hz (depending on where sub output is set at) and lowpassing at the point to where your midrange can safely take over .... lets say for arguments sake you have a dome midrange which can only work from around 800hz up
tweeter output - highpassed at 800hz - but the interconnect from this output could be physically split at the amp end with a y-splitter to feed a 4 channel amplifier which has a crossover capable of processing between the mid and tweeter - so you could lowpass the mid at maybe around 4000 to 5000hz and highpass the tweeter at around the same point

if you do go fully active though remember that the safest bet is to use crossover points at least one octave above the drivers resonant frequency unless you use a steeper slope than normal

Quote:
Now consider this,
say i am driving the XO's from the HU. irrespetive of what my Amp's XO's are, can i go for a fully active setup ? If yes, then i am game for it
built in power from the headunit is a form of amplification, so whatever applies to an external amplifier would also apply to the headunits built in power, so either you use the entire crossover OR you forget about using the crossover altogether and go the full active route as i have described above

if you can finds the correct amplifiers then it is very easily done. For example my 6 channel SPL Dynamics S7006 has a crossover capable of doing all the crossover duties for a three way component set and that too even if the headunit had no built in crossovers and only had 4 channels of output ie for front stage and sub only, obviously id need another amplifier for the sub but with a front input only i have a switch that could configure the entire amplifier to work with only two channels of input ie feed it only left and right, and have that expanded into three sets of left and right by flicking a switch and it has crossovers for all channels adjustable from 40hz to 5000hz at 24db/octave slopes

So you are only limited by the type of equipment you can find but there are more than one ways of doing things that will work well and for me i find that the system design aspects are best done in the planning stages because once you have bought equipment you are committed to only what that equipment can do

Last edited by naughty001 : 5th October 2009 at 15:44. Reason: correcting grammar
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Old 5th October 2009, 15:59   #58
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Gotcha point

So. if i am to use this semi-Active model (passive between mids and high) i just cant use the 3-way XO that came along.

i either need to hunt for a 2-way XO that can split mids and highs or build a custom one.
well one option is to send a HPFed signal to the original XO. You can derive this signal either from the HU or from the power amp whichever one gives you the correct frequency/slope you want.

Say the midrange in the original XO is set to 500-3kHz. Send a signal to the XO that is HPFed at say 300Hz/12db.

This will drastically reduce the power to be managed by the pasive XO (all 3 bands). Now add a 4 ohm / 10W resistor to the woofer output terminals. While this will not exactly emulate the woofer it will be a pretty close match.

Since the XO is only getting stuff that is 200Hz+ and the midrange is taking over from 300hz this 10W resistor will mostly see the 200-300Hz band hence 10W is enough and is easily available. 25W and 50W resistors are usually custom ordered.

Now I am not saying that this mongrel XO will meet or beat a new custom XO designed using the midrange's and tweeter's FRD curves etc.. but since you do not have access to FRD data or have LMS or MLSSA or something similar to produce this data the XO I have described above will do a decent job (if not be technically accurate).
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Old 5th October 2009, 16:37   #59
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well one option is to send a HPFed signal to the original XO. You can derive this signal either from the HU or from the power amp whichever one gives you the correct frequency/slope you want.

Say the midrange in the original XO is set to 500-3kHz. Send a signal to the XO that is HPFed at say 300Hz/12db.

This will drastically reduce the power to be managed by the pasive XO (all 3 bands). Now add a 4 ohm / 10W resistor to the woofer output terminals. While this will not exactly emulate the woofer it will be a pretty close match.

Since the XO is only getting stuff that is 200Hz+ and the midrange is taking over from 300hz this 10W resistor will mostly see the 200-300Hz band hence 10W is enough and is easily available. 25W and 50W resistors are usually custom ordered.

Now I am not saying that this mongrel XO will meet or beat a new custom XO designed using the midrange's and tweeter's FRD curves etc.. but since you do not have access to FRD data or have LMS or MLSSA or something similar to produce this data the XO I have described above will do a decent job (if not be technically accurate).
With respect to this post,http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...ml#post1508393

is the attached wiring option possible?
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Old 5th October 2009, 23:58   #60
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With respect to this post,http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...ml#post1508393

is the attached wiring option possible?
IMHO it wont work because the amps that you are using cannot crossover at those points you require - for example you state that you want a bandpass of 60hz to 600hz for the midbass yet the kappa amp has a upper limit of 320hz - and trying to use the crossover on the headunit at that point means that the coaxial is also limited to the frequency response you set ie from 60hz to 600hz

then also the JBL amplifier is even more limited in crossover points than the kappa amplifier is - so that idea of crossing over at 5000hz from the amp is not possible and the headunit will not work at two possible points from one output

and futhermore to split as many times as that even though it physically will not cause too much of a problem will prevent you from using any form of time alignment which is one of the reasons why you would want to go active

i would suggest that if you really want to go active then you need either a headunit with a crossover designed for the number of channels and crossover points you need like a pioneer DEX-P99RS or a clarion HX-D2 (called the DRZ9255 in the states) or a processor with that eg an audison bit one

the other alternative is an analog 4 way crossover possibly like the audiocontrol 6xs with the relevant resistor modules .... actually any brand will do as long as it is able to work at the crossover points you provide - otherwise you need to custom build the crossovers

Navins idea on the face of it of using a resistor connected to the crossover connection seems feasible - i will ask andy what he thinks of the idea

Last edited by naughty001 : 6th October 2009 at 00:17.
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