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Old 6th October 2009, 11:53   #61
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Navins idea on the face of it of using a resistor connected to the crossover connection seems feasible - i will ask andy what he thinks of the idea
well yes - Andy says it will be better to use those resistors than leaving those channels unpopulated if you use those passives BUT the better idea according to him is to modify the crossover by bridging a few circuits and disconnecting a few components and make it into a two way crossover

he is prepared to help with that if you have a schematic of the crossover ie he will say what to connect and what to remove, but if the schematic proves difficult to find then the idea of the resister will work, because it prevents any unused voltage from becoming heat. Without the resistor being there the passive crossover will get very heated up and probably melt so according to him the most satisfactory method is to remove the offending bits of the circuit if you are handy with a soldering iron

either way if you use the passive for the midrange and tweeter it simplifies the potential system IMHO - for example if you get a 9887 then you could use the 300 watt monoblock for the sub connected to the amp channels - then use only the kappa amplifier ie two of the channels for the midbass then the modified passive on the tweeter channel

then what i would do is power the coaxials from the rear section of the headunit power because thats around 22 watts RMS, the reasoning behind doing this is to save your battery from being drained too quickly by the effects of multiple amplifiers, so the fewer amplifiers you need the simpler the system becomes and the system integrates into the cars electronic setup easily instead of needing to switch over to stronger alternators or deep cycle batteries etc due to lots of amplifier power.
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Old 6th October 2009, 11:59   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
is the attached wiring option possible?
One word answer: No.

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Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post
IMHO it wont work because the amps that you are using cannot crossover at those points you require

then also the JBL amplifier is even more limited

prevent you from using any form of time alignment which is one of the reasons why you would want to go active

clarion HX-D2 or a processor with that eg an audison bit one

the other alternative is audiocontrol 6xs

i will ask andy what he thinks of the idea
Exactly. To do what you want to do (assuming you do not want TA) you would need an amp that has a LPF at 600Hz, Bandpass at 600 and 4kHz, and HPF at 4kHz. Besides like Naughty says the use of so many Y connectors is not advisable.

The HX-D2 does not play MP3s so you'd have to get a ipod cable and use an ipod for that.

If you want TA you will need the RF 360.2/Alpine 650 or Audiocontrol Bit one if not the audiocontrol will do.

Naughty, please ask Andy when the "MS-Late" will be out. Actually dont the poor man is very stressed as it is. Actually if you want to be exact you can replace the 4ohm resistor that is connected across the woofer terminals and use a 3ohm resistor+1mh (or whatever the Le of teh Hertz woofer is) inductor in series. This will give you an even more exact solution. The reason I stated 4ohm earlier is beucase 4ohm/10W resistors are easily available in India. For 3 ohms you'd need to wire a 2ohm and 1 ohm in series.
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Old 6th October 2009, 12:15   #63
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he is prepared to help with that if you have a schematic of the crossover ie he will say what to connect and what to remove, but if the schematic proves difficult to find then the idea of the resister will work.
Actually if you can post a schematic even poor old me can tell you what to de-solder (lets trouble gurus like Andy only with stuff we cant fix ourselves na?). It aint rocket scince. Most XOs are parallel XOs so it wont be a big problem. If it turns out to be a Series XO then ue the 3ohm/Le mH inductor combo as series XOs expect to see a complex load.

Naughty, how is Andy doing. Has he moved to the west coast or is he being allowed to stay on the east coast and work from there.
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Old 6th October 2009, 12:37   #64
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Actually if you can post a schematic even poor old me can tell you what to de-solder (lets trouble gurus like Andy only with stuff we cant fix ourselves na?). It aint rocket scince. Most XOs are parallel XOs so it wont be a big problem. If it turns out to be a Series XO then ue the 3ohm/Le mH inductor combo as series XOs expect to see a complex load.

Naughty, how is Andy doing. Has he moved to the west coast or is he being allowed to stay on the east coast and work from there.
PLease find attached the network diagram of the XO
Attached Files
File Type: pdf pdf_esk163l.pdf (393.4 KB, 180 views)
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Old 6th October 2009, 13:17   #65
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Naughty, how is Andy doing. Has he moved to the west coast or is he being allowed to stay on the east coast and work from there.
No idea sir, i only PM'ed him at DIYMA because he was the most knowledgeable person to answer my thread there, and i had spoken to him in the past regarding some JBL equipment i had purchased, but like he says in the thread he was just having fun

Quote:
Actually if you can post a schematic even poor old me can tell you what to de-solder (lets trouble gurus like Andy only with stuff we cant fix ourselves na?). It aint rocket scince. Most XOs are parallel XOs so it wont be a big problem. If it turns out to be a Series XO then ue the 3ohm/Le mH inductor combo as series XOs expect to see a complex load.
yep im sure you would be able to easily figure it out

Quote:
Naughty, please ask Andy when the "MS-Late" will be out. Actually dont the poor man is very stressed as it is
i am curious about that myself since i have tinkered with an audison bit one but i have been hearing that the MS8 will allow for a L+R centre channel and L-R rear fill, so im also curious as to when that will be released, if it has as many inputs and outputs as the audison unit and it does that centre and rear fill processing as they state then it will become my favourite processor

but indeed they dont have an idea yet when it will be released but its probably a better idea for them to do all the research and development properly than to have a to release a unit that gets recalled like the bit one did in the states to be replaced with the bit one.1
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Old 6th October 2009, 13:31   #66
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PLease find attached the network diagram of the XO
Mi10 this is part of the data. What you have given is the schematic what we could also use is a photo to see what points are available for you to tap.

Still lets see if we can work with just the schematic - I hope you can trace the components on the XO PCB.

What you really need to do is remove the 1.5mH inductor in series with the woofer altogether.

Next desolder the point where the midrnage and tweeter XOs meet. One point is the junction of the 22uf cap and the + wire and the second point is the junction of the 1.5mH inductor in the midrange XO.

The mid section has 22 μF, 1,50 mH, 4,7 Ω, 5,6 Ω, 6,8 Ω and 0,82 mH.

The HF part has 1,8 Ω, 3,3 Ω, 4,7 Ω, 5,6 μF and 0,22 mH.

For starters connect the 5,6 Ω resistor for the mid and the 4,7 Ω resistor for the HF. You can change them if you find the mid to forward or laid back or the tweeter too liad back (for the tweeter the setting suggested is the most laid back setting).

Se the HU front output to the highest HPF XO it can go (but no higher than 300Hz). Connect HU to 480 in bridge mode and let the XO divide the HF and mid to the tweeter and midrange.

A second option is to use Y connectors to connect the HU to teh amp in 4 channel mode and then use the HF and Mid sections of the XO seperately between the amp and Mid / HF drivers. The wiring for this is much more complex.

Now for the LF section. Wire the 1.5Mhz inductor you remvoed from the XO in series with the woofer. Run the 2 channels of the Infinity amp that are feeding the 6" woofers in fullrange mode.

Like Naughty suggested you can use just the Infinity amp (2 channels for the woofers and 2 channels for the mid/hf) and let the HU power the rear speakers.

Last edited by navin : 6th October 2009 at 13:32.
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Old 6th October 2009, 14:19   #67
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What you really need to do is remove the 1.5mH inductor in series with the woofer altogether.
agreed 100%

Quote:
The mid section has 22 μF, 1,50 mH, 4,7 Ω, 5,6 Ω, 6,8 Ω and 0,82 mH.

The HF part has 1,8 Ω, 3,3 Ω, 4,7 Ω, 5,6 μF and 0,22 mH.

For starters connect the 5,6 Ω resistor for the mid and the 4,7 Ω resistor for the HF. You can change them if you find the mid to forward or laid back or the tweeter too liad back (for the tweeter the setting suggested is the most laid back setting).
i dont think he needs to intefere with those for either the mid or the tweeter, cos the three different resistors there are probably connected to a switch, so he can change those at will for any attenuation he requires, if not a switch they will probably have a jumper which will allow you to select the level of attenuation. I havent used the energy series of Hertz but i have fitted a series of the "high energies" for a buddy and that crossover used switches for the attenuation, so you just position the switch at the value you require.If you dont like the setting just flick the switch to change it though on th ecrossove rit wont read as the values of the resistors, it will be more like a selection between -2/0/+2 or something like that

Quote:
Now for the LF section. Wire the 1.5Mhz inductor you remvoed from the XO in series with the woofer. Run the 2 channels of the Infinity amp that are feeding the 6" woofers in fullrange mode.
this is doable, but that would keep the midbass at 6db/octave, i would rather bandpass it actively using the crossover on the headunit and not use the inductor coil at all , but using the inductor is also an acceptable solution if you find it easier to do it this way OR if you dont wish to change the headunit

Last edited by naughty001 : 6th October 2009 at 14:24.
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Old 6th October 2009, 15:03   #68
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Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post
this is doable, but that would keep the midbass at 6db/octave, i would rather bandpass it actively using the crossover on the headunit and not use the inductor coil at all , but using the inductor is also an acceptable solution if you find it easier to do it this way OR if you dont wish to change the headunit
the inductor will go between the amp and speaker. the signal is virtually fullrange (80Hz+) to the amp from the HU and the inductor is the only XO for the midbass.

remember the midrange is HPFed at 600Hz. Something has to cover the range to 600Hz. Unless the amp has a 600Hz/12db XO or a 600Hz/12db PLLXO can be made to go before the amp this might be his best option.
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Old 6th October 2009, 18:08   #69
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
the inductor will go between the amp and speaker. the signal is virtually fullrange (80Hz+) to the amp from the HU and the inductor is the only XO for the midbass.

remember the midrange is HPFed at 600Hz. Something has to cover the range to 600Hz. Unless the amp has a 600Hz/12db XO or a 600Hz/12db PLLXO can be made to go before the amp this might be his best option.
agreed if he uses his current headunit - but i was talking from the point of view that he wants to swop over to a 9887 or P800RS - those will have the relevant active crossovers onboard

if he sticks with his current headunit then the way you describe is the way to do it
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Old 6th October 2009, 20:38   #70
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Smile Yeah!!!

Just when i was feeling guilty of not studying my Electrical engineering properly, came my ray of hope.
I had asked my friend in US to order the Infinity Kappa4 Amp. I got a mail from him saying he has ordered for it. and the next 2 weeks i just couldnt contact him. Recieved a call from him just now. He did not order any stuff as he knew Tks giving day is coming up.

Now the best part is i have full freedom to select my Amp and HU. He is coming down by Dec1st. and i have more than 5 weeks time to decide carefully.

Now i need to select a good SQ HU and a matching Amp for my Hertz Energy series speakers (ESK 163L - front stage and ESK165 - rear stage)
Will post up my options after some research. please hold on Gurus

Last edited by Mi10 : 6th October 2009 at 20:38. Reason: typo
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Old 6th October 2009, 21:36   #71
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Will post up my options after some research. please hold on Gurus
After 5 pages of Gyan from the Gurus, you are yet to decide on what you'd want - Fantastic..
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Old 7th October 2009, 10:29   #72
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This JL Audio 450/4- says it has fully variable crossovers independently for front and rear channels. meaning : we can set our custom crossover frequency ?

Specs:
Channels 1&2: stereo mode: 150 W RMS x 2 @ 1.5 ohm - 4 ohm (11 - 14.5V)
bridged mode: 300 W RMS x 1 @ 3 ohm - 8 ohm (11 - 14.5V)
Channels 3&4: stereo mode: 75 W RMS x 2 @ 1.5 ohm - 4 ohm (11 - 14.5V)
bridged mode: 150 W RMS x 1 @ 3 ohm 8 ohm (11 14.5V)
THD at Rated Power: <0.03% @ 4 ohm (All Channels)
S/N Ratio: (All Channels): >108.5 dB below rated power
Frequency Response (All Channels): 5 Hz-30 KHz (+0, -1dB)
Damping Factor (All Channels): >200 @ 4 ohm/50 Hz
Slew Rate (All Channels): 25 V / S @ 4 ohm per ch.
Input Range: switchable from 200mV-2V RMS to 800mV-8V RMS
Dimensions: 19.7"L x 9.25"W x 2.36"H (500 mm x 235 mm x 60 mm)


Differential-Balanced Input Topology: (2 pairs of inputs)
Ch. 1&2 Crossover: fully-variable (50 Hz-5 KHz), selectable-slope LP,BP or HP (12 or 24 dB per octave)
Ch. 3&4Crossover: fully-variable (50 Hz-5 KHz), selectable-slope HP
(12 or 24 dB per octave)
Preamp Output:2-channel (Pass-through with selectable input sourcing)
Bass EQ: +6 dB (variable boost up to +15 dB with Remote Bass Option)
Infrasonic Filter (Channels 1&2 only):defeatable 24dB/octave at 30 Hz
All speaker output connections: accept up to 8ga. wire
Dual mono subwoofer output connections: accept up to 8ga. wire
+12V and Ground connections: accept up to 4ga. Wire
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Old 7th October 2009, 10:48   #73
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Mi10, if you give up trying to install them, I'm always willing to take them off your hands, at a reduced price of course
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Old 7th October 2009, 10:57   #74
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This JL Audio 450/4- says it has fully variable crossovers independently for front and rear channels. meaning : we can set our custom crossover frequency ?

Ch. 1&2 Crossover: fully-variable (50 Hz-5 KHz), selectable-slope LP,BP or HP (12 or 24 dB per octave)
Ch. 3&4Crossover: fully-variable (50 Hz-5 KHz), selectable-slope HP
(12 or 24 dB per octave)
Nice find. I forgot about these amps.
The way the JL audio amp's filter section works (atleast the 500/5 amp's filter worked this way) is as follows.

You can set Ch 1 and 2 for Low Pass, Band Pass and High Pass. For Low and High Pass the amp works like it normally would (single filter). For band pass the amp's ch1 and ch2 filters are really low pass filters but limited to the freq set on the ch 3 and ch 4 filter.

so in BP mode if you set the ch 1 and ch 2 filters to say 500Hz and ch 3 and cha4 filters to say 5000Hz, ch 1 and ch 2 speaker out will get 500hz-5000hz.
and ch3 and ch 4 will get 5000+Hz out. Now if you set the slopes at 12db you should be ok.


If you are importing a JL AUdio amp get the 900/5. It is the upgraded version of the 500/5. My only aphrehension of this amp is that it is fully class D. JL Audio has some pretty smart engineers working for them and I hope they have solved the irratating HF switching noise issue without the attendant huge phase shift swings from the filters that are used to filter this noise. Class D (and it's variants) is going to be the "next-gen" in amps not becuase the amps are smaller or lghter but becuase they generate so much less heat.

Last edited by navin : 7th October 2009 at 11:07.
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Old 7th October 2009, 11:08   #75
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Mi10, if you give up trying to install them, I'm always willing to take them off your hands, at a reduced price of course
I wont allow 5 pages of this Gyan to go waste
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