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Old 7th October 2009, 11:12   #76
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Mi10, gyan is never wasted. The reason Naughty and others are helping you is because you seem to helping yourself a lot too. We like guys who are willing to put in a bit of work themselves.
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Old 7th October 2009, 11:21   #77
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Mi10, if you give up trying to install them, I'm always willing to take them off your hands, at a reduced price of course
I wont allow 5 pages of this Gyan to go waste
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Old 7th October 2009, 12:36   #78
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Nice find. I forgot about these amps.
The way the JL audio amp's filter section works (atleast the 500/5 amp's filter worked this way) is as follows.

You can set Ch 1 and 2 for Low Pass, Band Pass and High Pass. For Low and High Pass the amp works like it normally would (single filter). For band pass the amp's ch1 and ch2 filters are really low pass filters but limited to the freq set on the ch 3 and ch 4 filter.

so in BP mode if you set the ch 1 and ch 2 filters to say 500Hz and ch 3 and cha4 filters to say 5000Hz, ch 1 and ch 2 speaker out will get 500hz-5000hz.
and ch3 and ch 4 will get 5000+Hz out. Now if you set the slopes at 12db you should be ok.


If you are importing a JL AUdio amp get the 900/5. It is the upgraded version of the 500/5. My only aphrehension of this amp is that it is fully class D. JL Audio has some pretty smart engineers working for them and I hope they have solved the irratating HF switching noise issue without the attendant huge phase shift swings from the filters that are used to filter this noise. Class D (and it's variants) is going to be the "next-gen" in amps not becuase the amps are smaller or lghter but becuase they generate so much less heat.
Thanks Navinji, for your motivating comments.
Coming back to point, by ur suggestion; Ch1 and Ch2 can be used for the Mids (500HZ - 5KHZ) and Ch3 and Ch4 can be used for the highs (5KHZ above) right?
Now what do i do for the lows (sub 500HZ frequencies?) - use the other Amp ? however its crossovers come with LPF: 50-250HZ
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Old 7th October 2009, 13:23   #79
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Where is the thread heading??

Mi10@ At first basic I would say fix your system budget. Decide on what gear you want depending whether you want to go 2 way active or 3 way. It looks like you want to have a front 3 way, rear setup and a sub which means you need 8 channel of amplification.
Can you conform what drivers are you planning to use?

JL audio amps are suppose to pretty good. I guess there is JL audio 500/5 on offer at woofersetc.com for about 480$. It's 100x2, 25x2 and 250x1.
As Navin mentioned you could use the front channel and rear channel for Mids and highs and sub can be used on ch5 with LP anything below 100hz.

I don't have any idea of whats your budget on HU but there is a Clarion DRZ9255 same as HXD2 available for 900$ at Clarion DRZ9255 CD Players - In-Dash Receivers at Onlinecarstereo.com
This can do a 4 way active setup

If not than wait for the JBL's MS-8 or Late as Navin mentioned as some of them are patiently waiting for from the time it was announced 2 years back. But hopefully it should be out by 1st quarter of 2010..may be, it's seems that the hardware is almost ready but they are trying to figure out certain things with software, it could do almost almost every setup one could think of.

Last edited by Invinsible : 7th October 2009 at 13:31.
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Old 7th October 2009, 16:09   #80
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Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
Now what do i do for the lows (sub 500HZ frequencies?) - use the other Amp ?
Now you know why some posts ago I suggested bypassing the Infinity amp's XO and using the 1.5mH taken from the Hertz XO?

You are catching on fast! :-)

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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Where is the thread heading??
I agree..to quote Bruce Springsteen...
"Like a river that dont know where its flowing
I took a wrong turn and I just kept going"


Mi10. Fix a budget. then the concept. JL 500/5, 450/2, 900/5 are expensive esp since you have to import them.
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Old 7th October 2009, 17:44   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Now you know why some posts ago I suggested bypassing the Infinity amp's XO and using the 1.5mH taken from the Hertz XO?

You are catching on fast! :-)



I agree..to quote Bruce Springsteen...
"Like a river that dont know where its flowing
I took a wrong turn and I just kept going"

Mi10. Fix a budget. then the concept. JL 500/5, 450/2, 900/5 are expensive esp since you have to import them.
OK, here it goes;
My Budget (for Amp and HU alone): 50K INR (US $1000)
Key points here:
  • All products brought from US by friend(s)
  • HU mostly will be the X991 or DZX785USB (Max budget: $350-400)
  • AMp can be either 4, 5 or 6 channel (Max Budget: $600-700)
  • Already have 3-way components for front stage
  • Already have a 4-Ch Amp - Blaupunkt GTA 480 (75W RMS x 4)
Concept:

Front Stage: 3-way Active compo; 6 channels of Amplification
Rear Coax - preferably through Amp (if not feasible, drive through HU)
Sub - through bridged channels of GTA-480 (2 x 210W RMS)

PLease suggest what best can be done within this budget.

Thanks in advance and Apologies for not getting my ideas clear earlier
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Old 7th October 2009, 18:23   #82
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So, with my limited knowledge i am proposing this methodology.
Gurus can review and comment if its feasible

PFA the wiring diagram


GTA-480 Specs:
High-pass filter crossover frequency (Hz): 50 - 250
High-pass filter edge steepness (dB/Octave): 12
Low-pass filter crossover frequency (Hz): 50 - 250
Low-pass filter edge steepness (dB/Octave): 12
Bass Boost setting range (dB): 0 - 12

JL Audio 450/4 V2 Specs:
Differential-Balanced Input Topology: (2 pairs of inputs)
Channels 1 and 2 Crossover:
  • Fully-variable (50 Hz-5 KHz), selectable-slope LP or HP (12 or 24 dB per octave)
Channels 3 and 4 Crossover:
  • Fully-variable (50 Hz-5 KHz), selectable-slope LP or HP (12 or 24 dB per octave)
Preamp Output: 2-channel (Pass-through with selectable input sourcing)
Bass EQ: +6 dB (variable boost up to +15 dB with Remote Bass Option)
Infrasonic Filter (Channels 1&2 only): defeatable 24dB/octave at 30 Hz

Eclipse XA2000 Specs:
FET power supply
Variable 30-500 Hz 18 dB high-pass crossover
Variable 50-500 Hz 18 dB low-pass crossover
Variable 0-8 dB Bass Boost
Fully variable Subsonic Filter from 32-64 Hz

PLease let me know if its feasible, considering i am driving it from X991 / DXZ785USB
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Old 7th October 2009, 19:44   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mi10
# HU mostly will be the X991 or DZX785USB (Max budget: $350-400)
For this budget, get the Eclipse 7200 mkII

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10
Sub - through bridged channels of GTA-480 (2 x 210W RMS)
I'm sorry to say. But, this won't sound close to what a good Class-D mono would with a good 4-ohm DVC. Have you chosen a sub?
Sell the blau 4-ch at the classifieds section.
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Old 7th October 2009, 20:31   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
For this budget, get the Eclipse 7200 mkII


I'm sorry to say. But, this won't sound close to what a good Class-D mono would with a good 4-ohm DVC. Have you chosen a sub?
Sell the blau 4-ch at the classifieds section.
I am reluctant with the Eclipse as it has 8V preout, not sure if other parts of ICE can take it up.

I have'nt chosen the sub. I know this would even come close to a mono, but i have it in, so though of creating a space for it.

Right now on tight budget, so will have to wait and see.
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Old 7th October 2009, 20:36   #85
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Guess, i didnt attach the wiring diagram. here you go...

Here AMP1(JL audio) will power the mids (500HZ - 5KHZ) and highs (above 5KHZ)
and AMP2(Eclipse) will power the Woofers (below 500HZ)

is this feasible?
Attached Thumbnails
Bi-Amping / Triamping - Help pls-amp2.jpg  


Last edited by Mi10 : 7th October 2009 at 20:38.
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Old 7th October 2009, 20:44   #86
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Quote:
I am reluctant with the Eclipse as it has 8V preout, not sure if other parts of ICE can take it up.
Bah! This 8V thingy is very academic. Of course, again, I did find a difference in volume levels from the Pioneer "4Volts" to the Clarion's 6V with the same gains levels.
So, get it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10
I have'nt chosen the sub. I know this would even come close to a mono, but i have it in, so though of creating a space for it.
You'd do better selling it. It has a good resale value on here, i think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10
Right now on tight budget, so will have to wait and see.
Yeah, right!

I'll give you the best tip( no its not worth even 2 cents), but here goes:
Listen to a bunch of decent ICE setups in chennai. PM me for the contacts. After 6-7 auditions, you'll know exactly what you want.
This has a selfish motive. I'm not able to take all these overhead transmissions.
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Old 8th October 2009, 01:11   #87
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Mi10 your simply running to many things in your head
First thing first, you already have the speakers i.e. 3 way component for front and 2 way component for rear. You also want to run the 3 way active in which case you need 3 way active xover that could be either from the HU or the amp or from a sound processor. Than you need to run your 2 way component as passive followed by the sub. All together you heading 8+1 or 2 (for sub)channel.
That's a lot. In process of getting everything right you may also want to consider make the sound too muddy with the all the speakers. There would be quite a bit of frequencies clashing in a size of an small hatchback, in your case I suppose you plan to use it in the i10 if am not wrong. With careful planning and right tuning one could avoid this. But if not done correctly it could have adverse effect on your sound stage.

Let's talk about the front stage. This would be your 3 way component in which you plan to run the midbass active and the midrange and tweeter through the passive xover. Which means you need 2 ch. for the midbass and 2 ch. to power the mids and tweeter through passive. Provided you do the modification to the passive xover as mentioned by Navin.
This also means that you would need to have TA for both the Active midbass and the passive system.
In short you would need 4 channel amp here.

Going to rear stage. This should be fine if you using it as filler balancing it with the front stage. In which case it is preferred to have this bandlimited which would be from 200hz to 3.15khz/4khz. Having too much of high freq. would pull the stage to the rear even if the gains are set at low level.
This means you need a 2 channel amp with either active xover for bandlimiting or choosing an amp that would give this possibility.
I would like to add something here, if using the rear setup without time delay could make one feel that all the sound is coming from front center but with more presence on the left side behind the driver. Having the rear set with gain set in a way where it would add little more presence is fine but without TA it would just not be that useful.
Am using the Clarion DXZ785 with front stage as 2 way passive and rear coax along with the sub with TA on all of them. I have bandlimited the rear coax with running the setup under "3 way active" and added TA to it. Have tried both with TA and without TA and can tell you, one can never enjoy the rear setup without adding TA to it. My rear acts just as fillers and after using Time alignment it adds to the center stage at the same time giving a feeling of sitting and listening to music in larger environment.
Which boils down to having 2 channel amp for rear, bandlimited and having a TA.

This leaves us with SUB section.
There is not much to do here accept for the placement of the sub and having TA on it would not make any sense.
HOW? Well in car the Sub is at the furthest listening point. Lets say you tune the system considering the driving position. In this case lets say sub is at 140cm, FR midbass is at 90cm, FR mid & tweet is at 85, FL midbass is at 130cm, FL mid & tweet is at 125cm, RL components is at 100cm and RR component is 135cm. In a given situation one would need to add time delay is such a way where by adding the difference all the speakers fall to 140cm similar to distance of the sub.
Which means one would add time delay of 50cm for the FR midbass, 55cm to FR mid & tweet, 10cm to FL midbass, 15cm to FL mid & tweet and same way to the rear setup.
That you are adding time delay to all the speakers leaving the sub so that you could have all the sound travelling in equal distance as per the driver's seat.

All this comes down to that you would need 4 active xover. where under "HIGH" setting you could use HPF of lets say around 500hz at 18db or 24db slope which means your front midrange and tweeter will be getting freq. above 500hz further getting separated by the passive xover.

Rear components can be set to "MID" setting where its getting bandlimited from 160/200hz to 3.15/4khz. or you could cross it higher as per your liking.

Front Midbass will be running active under "MIDBASS" setting as per your desire may be from HPF 60/80/100hz to 500hz LPF.

and in the end the Sub running under "SUB" setting LP under 100hz as per you desire.

In a given situation as this you need 8channel of amplification, 4 way active xoer or with TA atleast on 6channel.
The HU that you have mentioned comes with 3 way active xover. In which case you could you use MID & tweeter through passive under "high" setting, Midbass under "Mid" setting, the sub under "Sub" setting. That leaves with the rear components, which can used be if the sub amplifier is receiving signal from the HU where the HPF is at "through" and LPF is at 4khz, at which you could use LPF on the sub amplifier anything below 100hz, you could take the line output from the sub amp that is receiving the signal upto 4khz and feed it to the rear component's amplifier. since you would need to band-limit the rear components you could use HPF on it from 200hz. This way you could get band-limited output to the rear setup but you won't be able to have any TA on it.

Best I suggest is you choose a head unit that has 4 way Active xover capabilities, get Decent Two 4 channel amplifer in which case you get the desired 8 channel requirement, where you choose CH 1 & 2 for the mid&tweeter, Ch3 & CH4 for rear components and from the 2nd amplifier you choose Ch1 & Ch2 for the midbass and Ch3&Ch4 could be bridged to power the sub.
In your stated diagram you are using y connector to split signal from two channel to get 4 channel out of it, this cannot be further split by another Y cable as shown in your diagram.

The Amp I would suggest could be from Alpine MRP-F600, MBquart DSC 4125, SoundStream Reference series, Infinity amps.
MBquart DSC4125 is quite a capable amp does 125RMS x 4 and has more like a dual mono design where under bridged output gives out 500RMSx1 channel.

ANOTHER OPTION: You could also do with Clarion DXZ785 + RF3sixty.2 + Two 4 channel amps.
You could take front output from clarion feed it to RF3sixty.2 which can do 3 way active along with TA. Than use the rear output from Clarion on your rear components, this again give you the flexibility of having TA on rear, and than sub can run under SUB output.

Both these setup could push you budget by atleast 200-300$ or more depending on the choice of amplifiers you pick.

Last edited by Invinsible : 8th October 2009 at 01:16.
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Old 8th October 2009, 01:38   #88
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I am reluctant with the Eclipse as it has 8V preout, not sure if other parts of ICE can take it up.
In real world 4V or 8V will not make much of difference. It's just that you can expect clean output/signal as you go higher on volume. Output voltage is variable meaning at every different volume will put out different voltage percentage.
Its always better to take notice whether the amp you planning to use can handle the rated output voltage from the HU. As such there is no issues but at times some amps are not able to handle higher voltage from HU at higher volume and can start to clip or send the amp into protection mode. Bur, if the gain is set precisely there shouldn't be any issues.
A decade back there were not to many HU available with even voltage output as high as 4V. The max few of them were rated at 2V. In which case there were Line output converters used in competitions to feed out higher voltage signal but than again there weren't many amplifiers available to could handle that. Even today a good decent amp have input voltage sensitivity of upto 4-6V, compared to the higher end amp that can handle upto 8V and some competition amps that can take upto 13-14V.
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Old 8th October 2009, 09:23   #89
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Hi Invisible,

The earlier set up of bi-amoing the 3-way compos is scrapped.

Now this is want i want to do

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...ml#post1519310

Feasible ?
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Old 8th October 2009, 10:19   #90
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Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
Hi Invisible,

The earlier set up of bi-amoing the 3-way compos is scrapped.

Now this is want i want to do

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...ml#post1519310

Feasible ?
My previous post is in context to this. The diagram that you put up, won't simply work. You can't split a signal further when it's already split.
Solution to this I have already mentioned In my previous post. Be certain as to what you want it's not that nothing is possible. There are ways one can get what one desires but most importantly its the monetary limitation. Also it's better to have time delay function on the drivers.
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