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Old 8th October 2009, 18:22   #106
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Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
So here goes you fs for the 3-way compos

Woofer:
fs(HZ) - 62

Midrange:
fs(HZ) - 163,6

Tweeter:
fs(HZ) - 1250

I can interpret for the woofer and tweeter. Say its better to XO them above 62 and 1250 HZ respectively

Why is the midrange frequency 163,6 - Does that imply the safe bandpass
range is between 163HZ - 6KHZ ?(i am certainly wrong here, still..guessing)
firstly the Fs is only the free-air resonant frequency

the woofer will probably be enclosed in a door even if its playing more-or-less infinite baffle, the fact that its in a finite space like a door will drop its actual resonant frequency somewhat when it is installed

the midrange FS being at 163hz means that it isnt safe unless played at a minimum of one octave above that frequency, so i would suggest that at a slope of 12db/oct you would be okay having a highpass point of around 300hz to around whatever the factory suggest as a lowpass point

the tweeters FS at 1250 means that you wont be playing that anywhere near that, you would want to play it above one octave higher (one octave is a minimum remember) so i would suggest that you could bandpass the midrange from around 300hz to around 3000hz and highpass the tweeter from around 3000hz and the midbass would be different because as it is installed the space in which it plays will lower the actual resonand frequency, so it should be playable from around 60 to 70hz up to around the 300hz that you would like the midrange to play from, if you want to be safer then you could even raise that point up to 400hz if you like, it all depends on what the factory crossover points were you dont need to deviate too far from their crossover points
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Old 8th October 2009, 18:46   #107
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Since the Midrange's frequency response is given as 400HZ - 8KHZ. Guess my ideal bandpass would be from 500HZ - 5000HZ.

Great stuff man, its all different now; Ignorance was bliss, till i wandered into this forum
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Old 8th October 2009, 21:11   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
So here goes you fs for the 3-way compos

Woofer:
fs(HZ) - 62

Midrange:
fs(HZ) - 163,6

Tweeter:
fs(HZ) - 1250

I can interpret for the woofer and tweeter. Say its better to XO them above 62 and 1250 HZ respectively

Why is the midrange frequency 163,6 - Does that imply the safe bandpass
range is between 163HZ - 6KHZ ?(i am certainly wrong here, still..guessing)
Fs will simply give an idea how the drivers can be crossed but there are other parameters like Qts. Vas. Xmax that will help to determine how the drivers can be installed and perform.
With above parameter Fs it can be drawn that you could cross the woofer at 80hz at 18 or 24db slope, mid can be crossed at 300hz at 12db and tweeter can be crossed at 2500hz at 12db or at 4000hz at 6db slope.
However its better of to have the midrange playing upto to 4000hz or 5000hz and tweeters crossed at 4000hz at 12db as most vocals and guitar will be played by mids.
This is just an example there are various options you can play around with.
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Old 8th October 2009, 21:17   #109
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OK, this may be a slight OT.
Suppose i am connecting all my speakers using a 4-ohm load only.

Can i connect the Sub alone in 2 Ohm mode?(provided i connect a 2 ohm load to it)
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Old 8th October 2009, 21:29   #110
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Yea.
You can do that.
It wont be any problem.
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Old 8th October 2009, 22:25   #111
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Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
OK, this may be a slight OT.
Suppose i am connecting all my speakers using a 4-ohm load only.

Can i connect the Sub alone in 2 Ohm mode?(provided i connect a 2 ohm load to it)
as abhinav says above it wont be problem

PROVIDING that the amp is capable of doing it, for example if you have a stereo amp that needs to be bridged for your sub and it cannot work at a nominal impedance of two ohms then you cannot but if its a monoblock and can work at that impedance then its fine. As a practical example i dont think you can bridge two channels of your blaupunkt amp to run a 2 ohm sub.
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Old 9th October 2009, 10:44   #112
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Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post
no, what he suggested there is band limiting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post
firstly the Fs is only the free-air resonant frequency
naughty, many many thanks for doing such a good job of explaing this. I have been too bogged down with work and mod duties to take time out to help Mi10.
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Old 9th October 2009, 11:00   #113
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naughty, many many thanks for doing such a good job of explaing this. I have been too bogged down with work and mod duties to take time out to help Mi10.
Thanks a lot Navin and naughty,

I have one question in connecting the processor to the HU. Please find attached the images of RCA outputs of DXZ785 and the input channels of RF 3sixty.2

Now my question is;
The DXZ has 6 channels, which obviously is for 2 front + 2 rear + 2 centre/Sub. Now as suggested here, if i am to use this processor for fully 3-way active setup for front stage. How can i connect these two.

I will obviously need the rear preout as well as the sub preout for rearfills and a sub. With just 2 channels of front preout, how can i give inputs for all the 6 channels of RF360.2 ?

I am i confusing too much
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Old 9th October 2009, 11:48   #114
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You can connect the front, read, and sub from the HU to the RF360.2 Once you do that you will get all the 6 outputs from the 360.2 (each of these outputs can be either LP, HP or BP). If you want to biamp you will need to add an external crossover to this output. for example if you want to bi amp the front channels where everything from 80Hz to 600hz goes to teh midwoofer and everything above 600hzgoes to a passive crossover (that splits the signal tot eh mirange and tweeter) you will need a crossover (LPF for the midwoofer and HPF for the midrange-tweeter) after the RF.

So the RF only offers TA for front-rear-sub not for front midwoofer-midrange/tweeter.

So you can take the output (front) and put it into the JL 450-2. However if you are upgrading the HU to something like the Eclipe 7200 you do not need the 360.2. The Eclipse 7200 (or Alpine 9887) will offer you the same outputs (and better control) as the 360.2 (or for that matter the similar Alpine 650).

Gadgets like the 360.2 / 650 are more suited for applications where the OEM HU cannot be replaced (my wife has the Alpine 650 in her ANHC as she wanted to retain the stock look and at the time we did her install the dash kit and steering wiring harness for the 9887 was not available). Hence my mom got the 9887 in her car (my wife had no need for it).
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Old 9th October 2009, 12:38   #115
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
You can connect the front, read, and sub from the HU to the RF360.2 Once you do that you will get all the 6 outputs from the 360.2 (each of these outputs can be either LP, HP or BP). If you want to biamp you will need to add an external crossover to this output. for example if you want to bi amp the front channels where everything from 80Hz to 600hz goes to teh midwoofer and everything above 600hzgoes to a passive crossover (that splits the signal tot eh mirange and tweeter) you will need a crossover (LPF for the midwoofer and HPF for the midrange-tweeter) after the RF.

So the RF only offers TA for front-rear-sub not for front midwoofer-midrange/tweeter.

So you can take the output (front) and put it into the JL 450-2. However if you are upgrading the HU to something like the Eclipe 7200 you do not need the 360.2. The Eclipse 7200 (or Alpine 9887) will offer you the same outputs (and better control) as the 360.2 (or for that matter the similar Alpine 650).

Gadgets like the 360.2 / 650 are more suited for applications where the OEM HU cannot be replaced (my wife has the Alpine 650 in her ANHC as she wanted to retain the stock look and at the time we did her install the dash kit and steering wiring harness for the 9887 was not available). Hence my mom got the 9887 in her car (my wife had no need for it).
Instead of using a passive crossover, can i use a electronics XO for splitting the mids and highs? say something like this

Kicker 03KX3 - 3way XO
Crossover Type: 2-Way / 4-Channel or 3-Way / 2-Channel
Outputs: Front / Rear / Subwoofer or High-Pass / High-Pass / Low-Pass
Front High-Pass Crossover: 35-400Hz or 700-8,000Hz at 18dB / Octave
Rear High-Pass Crossover: 35-400Hz at 18dB / Octave
Low-Pass Crossover: 45-250Hz at 18dB / Octave
Bass Boost: 0 - 18dB at 40Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio: >110dB
Maximum Input / Output: 5V RMS
4-Channel Input / 6-Channel Output
2- or 4-Channel Input Parallel Switch
Independent High-Pass Front and Rear Outputs
Included Remote Bass Level Control
Infinitely Adjustable Crossover Frequencies
x20 High-Pass Frequency Multiplier
Variable 0  18dB Bass Boost at 40Hz
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Old 9th October 2009, 12:45   #116
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
You can connect the front, read, and sub from the HU to the RF360.2 Once you do that you will get all the 6 outputs from the 360.2 (each of these outputs can be either LP, HP or BP). If you want to biamp you will need to add an external crossover to this output. for example if you want to bi amp the front channels where everything from 80Hz to 600hz goes to teh midwoofer and everything above 600hzgoes to a passive crossover (that splits the signal tot eh mirange and tweeter) you will need a crossover (LPF for the midwoofer and HPF for the midrange-tweeter) after the RF.

So the RF only offers TA for front-rear-sub not for front midwoofer-midrange/tweeter.

So you can take the output (front) and put it into the JL 450-2. However if you are upgrading the HU to something like the Eclipe 7200 you do not need the 360.2. The Eclipse 7200 (or Alpine 9887) will offer you the same outputs (and better control) as the 360.2 (or for that matter the similar Alpine 650).

Gadgets like the 360.2 / 650 are more suited for applications where the OEM HU cannot be replaced (my wife has the Alpine 650 in her ANHC as she wanted to retain the stock look and at the time we did her install the dash kit and steering wiring harness for the 9887 was not available). Hence my mom got the 9887 in her car (my wife had no need for it).
hang on a second here, the 360.1 can be connected to a source device with only one preout and the importance of this is as follows

you connect the front output of the clarion headunit to the front input of the 360.2 and this will sum all 6 inputs as described in the manual as follows

Quote:
NOTE:The 3Sixty can be set up to create a 6-channel output with only 2-channels
(Left and Right) of input. However, for the best sound stage, it is strongly
recommended to connect into all of the main inputs (AUX not required).
The system will SUM if you are not using the 6 main inputs (all left
channels will form one signal and all right channels will form one signal).
Stereo imaging will be maintained but your fader will cease to function
dont worry about what they say about imaging because the setup we are considering here is a bit more complicated than the simple setup that the manufacturer suggests and we are not concerned with fader, all we want is that the left and right inputs create three left and three right outputs of the same signal because we want to use this for the front stage only

then the 360.2 outputs are used for the three way front stage, only snag i have discovered for that setup is that the sub outputs of the 360.2 can only be lowpassed up to a maximum of 200hz, this may create a problem to lowpass the midbass and that brings us back to square one where you need an amplifier with the relevant crossovers for the midbass

for the balance of the setup you need to use the rear outputs of the headunit toward your rear fill (since this will allow T/A for the delay aspects of rear fill) and then the sub output obviously for the sub

so the 360.2 method will only work if you can find a way to workaround that sub output channels frequency range limitation, so we should have checked this up in the manual before suggesting the method

there is one person who has already used this method but he needed to crossover his midbass only at 170hz so this limitation did not affect him, here is a link to his thread describing how he has done it

Getting a full 3-way active with T/A out of a 360.2 - DIY Mobile Audio

he uses y-splitters from the front output of his headunit to the inputs of the 360.2 but im sure he was not aware of the 360.2's summing capabilities - so you dont need to split the interconnects - just connect the front output of the headunit to the front input of the 360.2

to further complicate things .... but there is a simple fix for this the sub output of the 360.2 does not have T/A whereas the centre output does have it, so to fix this you need to use the sub output on the speaker further away from you and the centre output on the speaker closer to you (only if you wish to use T/A)

NOTE : Mi10 i looked at that kicker crossover but the problem there is also that the lowpass on the sub output is a maximum of 250hz and you want it to be more like 500hz

Last edited by naughty001 : 9th October 2009 at 12:53.
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Old 9th October 2009, 12:49   #117
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Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
Instead of using a passive crossover, can i use a electronics XO for splitting the mids and highs?
You can. You can take the front out from the HU and stick it into a 2/3 way XO. A 2 way XO at 600hz will split the signal for the midwoofer and midrange tweeter a 3 way XO can split it 3 ways. If you use a 2 way XO you will need 4 channels of amplification, if you use a 3 way XO you will need 6.
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Old 9th October 2009, 13:06   #118
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hang on a second here, the 360.1 can be connected to a source device with only one preout and the importance of this is as follows

you connect the front output of the clarion headunit to the front input of the 360.2 and this will sum all 6 inputs as described in the manual as follows

dont worry about what they say about imaging because the setup we are considering here is a bit more complicated than the simple setup that the manufacturer suggests and we are not concerned with fader, all we want is that the left and right inputs create three left and three right outputs of the same signal because we want to use this for the front stage only

then the 360.2 outputs are used for the three way front stage, only snag i have discovered for that setup is that the sub outputs of the 360.2 can only be lowpassed up to a maximum of 200hz, this may create a problem to lowpass the midbass and that brings us back to square one where you need an amplifier with the relevant crossovers for the midbass

for the balance of the setup you need to use the rear outputs of the headunit toward your rear fill (since this will allow T/A for the delay aspects of rear fill) and then the sub output obviously for the sub

so the 360.2 method will only work if you can find a way to workaround that sub output channels frequency range limitation, so we should have checked this up in the manual before suggesting the method

there is one person who has already used this method but he needed to crossover his midbass only at 170hz so this limitation did not affect him, here is a link to his thread describing how he has done it

Getting a full 3-way active with T/A out of a 360.2 - DIY Mobile Audio

he uses y-splitters from the front output of his headunit to the inputs of the 360.2 but im sure he was not aware of the 360.2's summing capabilities - so you dont need to split the interconnects - just connect the front output of the headunit to the front input of the 360.2

to further complicate things .... but there is a simple fix for this the sub output of the 360.2 does not have T/A whereas the centre output does have it, so to fix this you need to use the sub output on the speaker further away from you and the centre output on the speaker closer to you (only if you wish to use T/A)

NOTE : Mi10 i looked at that kicker crossover but the problem there is also that the lowpass on the sub output is a maximum of 250hz and you want it to be more like 500hz
Good then, so the only issue here would be the frequncey range of the Mid-basses. Now for exmaple, if RF 360.2 permits only upto 200HZ but i give the output of this to an Amp whihc has frequency for LPF as 50-500HZ. Whill it work out?

Last edited by Mi10 : 9th October 2009 at 13:07. Reason: typo
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Old 9th October 2009, 13:14   #119
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You can. You can take the front out from the HU and stick it into a 2/3 way XO. A 2 way XO at 600hz will split the signal for the midwoofer and midrange tweeter a 3 way XO can split it 3 ways. If you use a 2 way XO you will need 4 channels of amplification, if you use a 3 way XO you will need 6.
navin - thats the exact setup that invinsible suggested but instead of a basic three way crossover he suggests the 360.2 since this will work as the three way crossover but also with T/A included (see my post above)

what we need to remember is that we dont need to worry about what the inputs/outputs are named because the crossover points are flexible, we can rename the 360.2 rca's as follows (in our minds eye) to make sense of this

front = tweeter
rear = midrange
sub = midbass

actually to make the whole thing easier i reckon instead of buying a headunit plus a 360.2 it will just be easier to get an audison bit one as long as you can ensure that you get the bit one.1 cos the original bit one had a few issues

so whichever headunit you use you already have the 4 way crossover with T/A capabilities plus the 32 band EQ per channel pair for as much adjustment as you like, and just use the headunit you have and its all very simple albeit a slight bit more expensive
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Old 9th October 2009, 13:15   #120
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Good then, so the only issue here would be the frequncey range of the Mid-basses. Now for exmaple, if RF 360.2 permits only upto 200HZ but i give the output of this to an Amp whihc has frequency for LPF as 50-500HZ. Whill it work out?
yes, it will then work perfectly as long as you have the amplifier that allows that adjustment and on the 360.2 you leave that particular channel as fullrange

EDIT : sorry for two posts so quickly after each other, i should have edited my previous post

Last edited by naughty001 : 9th October 2009 at 13:18.
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