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Old 26th September 2009, 12:28   #1
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Default Bi-Amping / Triamping - Help pls

Dear Guru's,

After searching through few threads on the above topic, i am planning to do the same. With reagrds to this, i have few doubts, please do help me out. (Some may be Dumb, Apologies please)

1. The HSK 163L is a 3-way component pumping out 125W RMS. So if i am to Biamp this Compo or rather Triamp this compo, I need minimum of 6 Channels, Right ?

2. For Example, say i have one 4 Ch Amp (75W RMS x 4) and one 2-Ch Amp (125W RMS x 2). How do we know the RMS of each of the individual components ?. Isnt there a fair chance to fry the Amp or the Speakers if outputs are greatly mismatched ?

3. Most of the HU's have 3 RCA preouts in that case, should i use all the Preouts for 6 channel Amplification or i can use a Y-connector for 1 preout and thereby use ony 2 RCA. So that the 3rd RCA is kept for Sub.

4. Most Important:- Will a fully active setup be more effective than conventional Passive setups?(using external X-overs). I mean is it worth the effort ?

5. Head Unit:- Do we need a real high end HU for Bi-amping ? I currently have a Pio 5050, will it be enough for Triamping the compos or do i need to get a SQ HU. In case of latter, what SQ HU can you suggest between 15K INR (Importing is on cards too)

Thanks in advance

Cheers
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Old 26th September 2009, 13:24   #2
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I will keep away from 3 way setup as i have never heard it , but what i have heard is that its best to run a 3 way from cross overs itself as tuning will be abig fuss, yes gurus are there to help!!

For going active you need a head like P 80 RSII , its best you can buy under 20k (Grey) but it gives a tough competition to higher end heads as well !!
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Old 26th September 2009, 14:10   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
Dear Guru's,

After searching through few threads on the above topic, i am planning to do the same. With reagrds to this, i have few doubts, please do help me out. (Some may be Dumb, Apologies please)

1. The HSK 163L is a 3-way component pumping out 125W RMS. So if i am to Biamp this Compo or rather Triamp this compo, I need minimum of 6 Channels, Right ?

2. For Example, say i have one 4 Ch Amp (75W RMS x 4) and one 2-Ch Amp (125W RMS x 2). How do we know the RMS of each of the individual components ?. Isnt there a fair chance to fry the Amp or the Speakers if outputs are greatly mismatched ?

3. Most of the HU's have 3 RCA preouts in that case, should i use all the Preouts for 6 channel Amplification or i can use a Y-connector for 1 preout and thereby use ony 2 RCA. So that the 3rd RCA is kept for Sub.

4. Most Important:- Will a fully active setup be more effective than conventional Passive setups?(using external X-overs). I mean is it worth the effort ?

5. Head Unit:- Do we need a real high end HU for Bi-amping ? I currently have a Pio 5050, will it be enough for Triamping the compos or do i need to get a SQ HU. In case of latter, what SQ HU can you suggest between 15K INR (Importing is on cards too)

Thanks in advance

Cheers
For Bi-Amping a 3 way set you need 2 channels each for mids, midwoofers and tweeters.

2. Give the maximum power to the midbasses that is 125w and give the 4 channel to the mids and the highs.

3. I'm not the right person to answer this

4. Definitely. It is worth the effort but the effort would be like OMG.

5. For bi-amping, any hu would do but whats the use of using a p5050 for something good.
15k INR could mean you can try to get hold on one of the Pioneer P80RS ( RSII won't come in the budget i'm guessing)
3. If you are planning to go active or something
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Old 27th September 2009, 22:06   #4
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Any Idea on the Cost of instalation when it comes to Biamping ?

Atleast some Vague estimate ?
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Old 27th September 2009, 22:23   #5
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You don't have the crossovers for this 3-way set?
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Old 27th September 2009, 22:37   #6
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Quote:
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You don't have the crossovers for this 3-way set?
Yes, I do have it...
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Old 28th September 2009, 00:24   #7
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You just need some extra speaker cables.
and RCAs
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Old 28th September 2009, 05:13   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
You just need some extra speaker cables.
and RCAs
Great then by the way I am actually planning to Biamp the Three way compos.

PLease see the attached figure below

I guess for HPF's especially for the tweeters you dont need much of Amplification.

Hence will be using the passive Crossovers only for the Mids and Tweets separation.
Hence totally i ll need 2 x 2 = 4 Channels of Amplification
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Old 28th September 2009, 05:25   #9
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i guess there's something wrong here

you'll need to BP the midbass ( both hp and lp - hp at around 80 or so to prevent woofers playing frequencies below that and lp at the point where the midranges would come in)

and as you are playing the mid range and tweeter through the crossover, i don't think you need to hp/lp them.

p.s. which hu?
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Old 28th September 2009, 11:48   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
PLease see the attached figure below
Hence totally i ll need 2 x 2 = 4 Channels of Amplification
bi/tri amping has it's advantages. One of the advantages in bi/tri amping for home audio does not apply itself well in practive to car audio. In home audio one has access to a number of very good low power amps (either class A solid state or valve) that can be used for the mids and hf and various sub-amp combos that can give you flexibility over subwoofer alignment (including varying the Q). Such products are not available for car audio partly becuase the car enviroment is not condusive to such products.

However triamping (within the HU) in a car has one added advantage (other than replacig the power robbing passive XO with more efficient active XO) is that one can apply TA to each frequency band.

In a car where the ratio of speaker-listener distances is big (eg: listener-midbass/listener-tweeter) TA is essential to making the soundstage sound more consistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
1. The HSK 163L is a 3-way component pumping out 125W RMS. So if i am to Biamp this Compo or rather Triamp this compo, I need minimum of 6 Channels, Right ?

2. For Example, say i have one 4 Ch Amp (75W RMS x 4) and one 2-Ch Amp (125W RMS x 2). How do we know the RMS of each of the individual components ?. Isnt there a fair chance to fry the Amp or the Speakers if outputs are greatly mismatched ?

3. Most of the HU's have 3 RCA preouts in that case, should i use all the Preouts for 6 channel Amplification or i can use a Y-connector for 1 preout and thereby use ony 2 RCA. So that the 3rd RCA is kept for Sub.

4. Most Important:- Will a fully active setup be more effective than conventional Passive setups?(using external X-overs). I mean is it worth the effort ?

5. Head Unit:- Do we need a real high end HU for Bi-amping ? I currently have a Pio 5050, will it be enough for Triamping the compos or do i need to get a SQ HU. In case of latter, what SQ HU can you suggest between 15K INR (Importing is on cards too)
The big advantage of using a high end HU for tri-bi amping is that these Hus also include TA.

bi-amping a set of components requires 4 channels of amplification. Tri-amping requires 6. You can use a single 6 ch. amp or for that matter 2 4 ch. amps (bridging 4 ch. to 2 for the midbass) for triamping.

there is no fear of mismatching the levels as the amp input levels can be calibrated to accomodate any such level mismatch.

in a car an external XO mean that you have another set of RCA connectors that can allow for noise to enter the system. In the home the enviroment has very little electrical noise and hence this is not an issue.

Most HUs that have 3 SETS of pre out can be configured to either sub+biamp or tri-amp. It it your discretion what you think will suit you better. I think there are a few HUs that also offer sub+triamp (Alpine IVA 106, Kenwood 9140 etc..) as an option.
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Old 28th September 2009, 15:38   #11
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navin ji. Would he not have to band pass the mid bass since he is giving 2 channels to it and leave the hp and lp according to x-over due to the fact that he is going to use those with the crossover?
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Old 28th September 2009, 16:18   #12
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@Navin: Can you explain the TA - [I guess thats time alignment] and how it helps set the soundstage?

Thanks
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Old 29th September 2009, 08:20   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
i guess there's something wrong here

you'll need to BP the midbass ( both hp and lp - hp at around 80 or so to prevent woofers playing frequencies below that and lp at the point where the midranges would come in)

and as you are playing the mid range and tweeter through the crossover, i don't think you need to hp/lp them.

p.s. which hu?
I plannined this way since my present HU allows only two way crossover (i may be wrong here). One HPF and other LPF . Hence if i divert all LPFs, i though only the HPF can be divided by a passive crossover
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Old 29th September 2009, 09:31   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinav.gupta88 View Post
navin ji. Would he not have to band pass the mid bass since he is giving 2 channels to it and leave the hp and lp according to x-over due to the fact that he is going to use those with the crossover?
agreed. Mi10 is biampig. my statement was general and included both bi and triamping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
@Navin: Can you explain the TA - [I guess thats time alignment] and how it helps set the soundstage?
A soundstage it depedant on all the sources (woofer, mid, tweeter) from one channel arriving at the ear at the same time. If the woofer lags the soundstage will not sound real. TA helps bing all drivers withing a channel on the same time plane. In older days sophiticated passive ladder networks did this but they robbed the speaker of a lot of power and most speakers that incorporated these networks had sensitivies of 82-84db/1W/1m.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
I plannined this way since my present HU allows only two way crossover (i may be wrong here). One HPF and other LPF . Hence if i divert all LPFs, i though only the HPF can be divided by a passive crossover
For those of us who are senile, which HU is this?

What is the number of preouts the HU offers? 4, 6, or more? Most HUs offer 2 preouts for subs, 2 for the front and 2 for the rear. Some HUs allow you to use the rear preouts for the front hence giving you a sub+biamping capabilities. Since I did not knwo what HU you are using some of my statement might have confused you as they might have not been applicable.
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Old 29th September 2009, 10:23   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
agreed. Mi10 is biampig. my statement was general and included both bi and triamping.



A soundstage it depedant on all the sources (woofer, mid, tweeter) from one channel arriving at the ear at the same time. If the woofer lags the soundstage will not sound real. TA helps bing all drivers withing a channel on the same time plane. In older days sophiticated passive ladder networks did this but they robbed the speaker of a lot of power and most speakers that incorporated these networks had sensitivies of 82-84db/1W/1m.



For those of us who are senile, which HU is this?

What is the number of preouts the HU offers? 4, 6, or more? Most HUs offer 2 preouts for subs, 2 for the front and 2 for the rear. Some HUs allow you to use the rear preouts for the front hence giving you a sub+biamping capabilities. Since I did not knwo what HU you are using some of my statement might have confused you as they might have not been applicable.
NavinJi,

my head is a Pio 5050. It has 3 RCA preouts (the 3rd dedicated for the Sub)

How do i proceed now. Do i have to Change my HU?
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