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Old 6th October 2009, 01:19   #1
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Default Amp and Speaker ratings

Hi gurus,

i'm asking this question after reading through a lot of threads and also from a couple of recommendations be installers.

if the components are rated at 100W RMS @ 4 Ohms by the manufacturer and the amp we have decided on is rated at 70W RMS @ 4 Ohms, what are the repercussions of the combinations?

i'm asking in terns of my personal experience i.e. when played at high volumes for an extended period, the amp used to shut down or go into protect. was this due to the amp not being able to provide the power required by the components or a fault in the amp itself?

also, if the amp is rated lower than the requirements of the components, will we be under-utilizing the components or will they perform just the same no matter the power going to them?

now, another thing to consider here is that i replaced the amp with a similarly powered one albeit a different manufacturer. so is the same rating on an amp still different on each manufacturer?

would love to get some insight into the above so any inputs are most welcome.

thanks in advance.

Kiran
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Old 6th October 2009, 03:19   #2
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Providing less power should not be a problem.
Theres something wrong with the wiring or the over heating of amp or other am issues.

If you are not providing them with what they are rated at, obviously they will not perform upto the level they can.


It depends on various factors.
Good amps like Genesis, Steg etc are known to provide better output at the same power level.
It might be due to the cleaner playing ability of the amps or maybe due to the damping factors ( i'm not too certain on the solution)
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Old 6th October 2009, 04:49   #3
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abhinav,

thanks for the reply. when i asked if the components will work well, what i meant was: will the sound quality of the components vary and not exactly whether they would perform at their peak levels.

like, a 100 W component, when played on a 70 W amp, will they sound as good as on a 100 W amp or will there be a sound quality loss along with the power loss?

Kiran
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Old 6th October 2009, 12:19   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer919 View Post
if the components are rated at 100W RMS @ 4 Ohms by the manufacturer and the amp we have decided on is rated at 70W RMS @ 4 Ohms, what are the repercussions of the combinations?

i'm asking in terns of my personal experience i.e. when played at high volumes for an extended period, the amp used to shut down or go into protect. was this due to the amp not being able to provide the power required by the components or a fault in the amp itself?
What you have here is clipping of amp due to under powering of amp.
70 watts (amp) - 100 watts (speakers) --> you would have amp clipping at high volumes over extended period of playing. With careful gain setting you could control this.
80 - 100 watts - 100 watts --> more or less good set up. You might still get clipping of amp, agin with careful gain settings, you could control this.
100-130 watts - 100 watts --> what i call a perfect amp to speaker set up...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer919 View Post
now, another thing to consider here is that i replaced the amp with a similarly powered one albeit a different manufacturer. so is the same rating on an amp still different on each manufacturer?
each amp has differnent output rating. you would have to read the output rating of each amp carefully before buying!

Last edited by anToNIcHeN : 6th October 2009 at 12:24.
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Old 6th October 2009, 20:45   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anToNIcHeN View Post
What you have here is clipping of amp due to under powering of amp. ...
What made you think of that? No, an amp will clip ONLY when the signal supplied (after volume control) is so large that the voltage at the output of the amplifier reaches power supply voltage (not battery voltage; power supply voltage is usually 36V or more). This happens when you increase volume because you want to listen to it louder and louder. This is called 'clipping' (limiting) to power supply voltage. When this happens, a lot of unwanted frequencies are produced, which is as irritating as chalk screeching on a blackboard.

* Clipping can happen at outputs much less than full power, and have nothing to do with how more the speaker's power handling ability is than the amp's.

* Amp shutting down is due to the output stage overheating, and the thermal protection circuit preventing this overheating from burning the devices out. Overheating is simply a resultant of heat produced being greater than heat taken away (ineffective cooling).

* If one really drives rated power of the speaker into the speaker in the car, one would land up going deaf. In normal listening conditions, one utilizes only a part of the available power even for comfortably loud listening. There is no technical basis that prevents one from coupling a 70W rms/channel amp with a 100W rms speaker. Unless one wants to make an SPL system, that combination cannot be called 'underpowered' or 'underutilizing the capacity of the speaker'
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Old 6th October 2009, 21:47   #6
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thanks for the reply guys. that clears things up a lot. need some more help but dont know if it belongs on this thread.

i'm running Velocity components in my car and powering them through a MTX Thunder amp. the components themselves are quite bright and after listening to a coule of cars with electras in them, i was wondering is there is a was for me to supress the highs a little.

i've tried all i could with the EQ setup on the head unit and also to a extent through the Amp settings but i still feel a loss of the mids at high volumes.

the tweeters are nice and crisp at all volume levels and the sub aso does its job to my satisfaction but its the mids that i miss out a lot on.

any help would be much appreciated again

Thanks,
Kiran.

PS. the crossovers of the components are set to -3dB
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Old 7th October 2009, 09:50   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer919 View Post
i've tried all i could with the EQ setup on the head unit and also to a extent through the Amp settings but i still feel a loss of the mids at high volumes.

the tweeters are nice and crisp at all volume levels and the sub aso does its job to my satisfaction but its the mids that i miss out a lot on.

PS. the crossovers of the components are set to -3dB
do you use any EQ in the HU os it set to flat. If not start with flat and then decide which frequency band requires more attention.
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Old 7th October 2009, 09:53   #8
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* Don't fiddle with amp settings to correct the brightness. The amp settings are for selectively stopping mids for a sub, or low frequencies for mid-bass
* Usually brightness can be made acceptable by setting Treble to - a little bit. Setting EQ to a pre-stored profile will not correct this
* A quick and dirty means of reducing brightness is to put a layer of porous cloth over the tweeters. This will disperse the higher end frequencies and hence reduce the perceived brightness
* Another method would be to set the tweeters to play even more off-axis (making them point less direct towards the ears)
* The best method would be to ask the Blaupunkt guys to modify the XO to give a -6dB setting
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Old 7th October 2009, 22:17   #9
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Navinji, i have the EQ set right now with more emphasis on the mids. when it is flat, the tweeters really take over and the mids are virtually non-existant. so i have played around with the tuning a bit but cant seem to quite get it right. and if i go to the installer to try and make sense of it, namely the Bafna cars guy here, he seems to lke it dhin-chak Ishtyle and makes me pull out my hair.

need to find someone with a simlar taste in music listening who can perhaps help me tune the setup better.

also, DerAlte, i dint quite understand what you meant by getting the Blaupunkt guys to make a -9 dB setting on the XOs. can that be done by replacing the XOs from another set of comps or are you suggesting some mods to the XOs themselves?

i was actually considering swapping the XOs from a electra set and check if it helps.

Kiran
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Old 8th October 2009, 10:27   #10
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No, swapping XOs with another brand/model is a terrible idea - results will be very unpredictable since the driver parameters are unknown.

Blau service guys will be able to mod the XO to reduce the signal going to the tweeter with a resistor L-pad. Check with them - they will have the schematic and component values.
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:41   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer919 View Post
Navinji, i have the EQ set right now with more emphasis on the mids. when it is flat, the tweeters really take over and the mids are virtually non-existant.
If this is the case reduce the treble on the HU to your liking. The idea is to START with a flat EQ and then adjust to taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Blau service guys will be able to mod the XO to reduce the signal going to the tweeter with a resistor L-pad. Check with them - they will have the schematic and component values.
I do nto know if the blau guys will comply with such a request - no harm in asking. But if you find that the tweeter setting is a bit bright you can always pos the XO schematic here and we can work on an Lpad that has say 3db less gain on the tweeter.
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