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Old 24th July 2010, 19:50   #181
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Now i know why i try very hard not to visit the ICE sections...The topics start off with "Budget" & i enter looking for some info & before i know it, the pictures im looking at are way beyond what my requirements are

But what is great in all this is to see people fueling their passion!!!
Hope you enjoy your system once its all complete & all the hard work pays off.

Since there are so many ICE gurus on this thread, id like to ask a question.

Where can i get good damping done in South Mumbai? Im looking for professional workmanship & someone who knows their stuff down to the bones.


Am happy with my setup for now but all the rattles are completely spoiling it for me day in & day out. Sorry for hijacking your thread mi10. Just that i want to get this done soon, its driving me crazy, im sure you can understand.
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Old 24th July 2010, 20:39   #182
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Originally Posted by Xehaust View Post

Where can i get good damping done in South Mumbai? Im looking for professional workmanship & someone who knows their stuff down to the bones.

Well, I don't know much about places in Mumbai!

But all I know is that Bass&Trouble is in Bombay and that he 'knows his stuff down to the bones'!!

Try PMing him. He might be able to help!

(I believe his shop is in Parel and if I remember right its Central Mumbai! Just a hunch!)
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Old 25th July 2010, 21:48   #183
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In a fit of Euphoric Frenzy, went today to a local shop, with help of some tools and labour, installed the HU and Morel Midbasses.

To be honest, the sound feels like,......CRAP !!!!
well it wouldnt really manage to sound good because you are missing lots of the frequencies without the tweeter there

its a pity im in South Africa - if i lived a bit closer to you i could have lent you some tweeters to play direct off your head unit power since my "spare" tweeters also have their own crossover

but i think that the distances are too large for me to say i can lend you the tweeters (as a comparison its around 8000 kilometers from durban to bombay)

but im sure that soon enough you will have the tweeters of your dreams and those will more than make up for having to live without tweeters for a while

cant you try to use a really cheap tweeter - here in south africa everyone sells these really cheap tweeters that cost around 30 rand (around 180 rupees and thats really cheap cos you could probably buy one of those each day for a whole month and it would still be far less than the price of the tweeter you wish to get .... haha) and those will do as temporary measure off the headunit amp until the proper tweeters come in and when you do have the proper tweeters you can throw those away or donate them to a friend or something like that - it will give you a better idea toward how the mid will sound when the system is complete

Last edited by naughty001 : 25th July 2010 at 21:50.
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Old 25th July 2010, 22:49   #184
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Naughty, he has a deadhead. There IS no head unit amp to power the tweeters. So no point in him having spare tweeters too.
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Old 26th July 2010, 02:00   #185
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Originally Posted by febyphilabr View Post
Well, I don't know much about places in Mumbai!

But all I know is that Bass&Trouble is in Bombay and that he 'knows his stuff down to the bones'!!

Try PMing him. He might be able to help!

(I believe his shop is in Parel and if I remember right its Central Mumbai! Just a hunch!)
Thank you for the info. Will contact him
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Old 26th July 2010, 08:37   #186
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well it wouldnt really manage to sound good because you are missing lots of the frequencies without the tweeter there
Yes Nitin, absolutely right.

Here too i can get a Pioneer TS-250 Tweeters for as low as 200 bucks, but I definitely can't power them, with an External Amp (At frequencies i am consiering)

Also, i could incur the wrath of Audiophiles in this forum, for combining Morel HO + with TS-250

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Naughty, he has a deadhead. There IS no head unit amp to power the tweeters. So no point in him having spare tweeters too.
Prob'ly if i can get a capacitor that can allow me to HPF around 8000 Hz, at 6db slope, i can try hooking on to an external amplifier, however my Midbass range too is well below 4000 Hz, so not much benefit from doing this (Esp when you are awaiting the Tweeter in another 1 week )
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Old 26th July 2010, 10:25   #187
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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Naughty, he has a deadhead. There IS no head unit amp to power the tweeters. So no point in him having spare tweeters too.
ooops!!! - did not realize that this was a deadhead .... so yeah it was a bad idea from my side

Quote:
Also, i could incur the wrath of Audiophiles in this forum, for combining Morel HO + with TS-250
well you could have called it an experiment in looking at how cost cutting can influence the system - it would have been a direct comparison of really entry level stuff and high end stuff


BUT considering this

Quote:
when you are awaiting the Tweeter in another 1 week
i reckon you have no reason to be stressed out over the high frequency issue - just live without music for awhile - that 200 bucks can probably help you to get some cable or something or maybe a couple of fuses for your power distribution block and just waiting for the tweeters you really want will provide its own rewards in the long run
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Old 26th July 2010, 11:34   #188
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Mi10 am not to sure how you are running the Morel's. Is it with the velocity amp.
firstly, it's not that easy to get the workout off the Morels. Make sure you doors are completely sealed off, with right amount of damping than an avg comps require. secondly it's the freq. The midbass that you have can do 60 at24db,80hz at12db upto 1600,1800hz at 12 db. and most important feed the right amount of power. They are power hungry drivers. Feed them around 140-150rms and they'll start singing. When playing active polarity is one of the main issue. Try playing around with the phase. Give them time to open up, they take some playing time of 30-40hrs to put out the best result. Also, try and put a closed cell foam around the spacer with height of 1", could get slight better with midbass.
Add the tweeter without which you are missing all the details in vocals and high freq.

Quote:
I am BPing the Mids from 63 hz to 3.15 KHz with a 12 db slope for 63 Hz and a Flat response (No slope) for 3.15 Khz. i am doing this as i dont have a tweeter yet, so i ll need some high frequencies for the system to sound better.
I say you better reconsider the freq. you have chosen to play unless you wanna them damage on longer run. 3.15khz is tad bit too. The best would be to run it at 1800hz with 12db slope.

Last edited by Invinsible : 26th July 2010 at 11:50.
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Old 26th July 2010, 12:30   #189
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Mi10 am not to sure how you are running the Morel's. Is it with the velocity amp.
firstly, it's not that easy to get the workout off the Morels. Make sure you doors are completely sealed off, with right amount of damping than an avg comps require. secondly it's the freq. The midbass that you have can do 60 at24db,80hz at12db upto 1600,1800hz at 12 db. and most important feed the right amount of power. They are power hungry drivers. Feed them around 140-150rms and they'll start singing. When playing active polarity is one of the main issue. Try playing around with the phase. Give them time to open up, they take some playing time of 30-40hrs to put out the best result. Also, try and put a closed cell foam around the spacer with height of 1", could get slight better with midbass.
Add the tweeter without which you are missing all the details in vocals and high freq.


I say you better reconsider the freq. you have chosen to play unless you wanna them damage on longer run. 3.15khz is tad bit too. The best would be to run it at 1800hz with 12db slope.
Yes, I am running it off the Velocity (150 w rms per channel, as per specs).
I ll also experiment running them of the RF T400-2 (120W rms per channel, however came with a certificate that says it actually puts out 144 rms per channel)
Front doors have two rounds of Noise kill. I think i ll need them more.
Right now just mounted on to the Spacers, Do i need Baffles ?? Can someone throw light on Baffles ?
Yes, they surely need breaking in, I ve played around 10-12 hrs now, and they seem to have improved slightly

On the Xovers;
Now i am BPing between 63 hz @ 18 db slope and 2.5 Khz @ 12 db slope.
As per specs their frequency range is between 35 Hz - 3000 Hz with fs of 55hz.

Now my plan is:
Mid Bass: BP 63 Hz @ 18 Db - 2 Khz @ 12 db
Tweeter: HPF 2 Khz @ 18 db
Sub: LPF 63 hz @ 12 Db

However, i can only decide the final Xover freqeuncies, after laying my hands on the Tweeters and Sub.
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Old 26th July 2010, 13:54   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post

On the Xovers;
Now i am BPing between 63 hz @ 18 db slope and 2.5 Khz @ 12 db slope.
As per specs their frequency range is between 35 Hz - 3000 Hz with fs of 55hz.

Now my plan is:
Mid Bass: BP 63 Hz @ 18 Db - 2 Khz @ 12 db
Tweeter: HPF 2 Khz @ 18 db
Sub: LPF 63 hz @ 12 Db

However, i can only decide the final Xover freqeuncies, after laying my hands on the Tweeters and Sub.
As per the spec on the H.O midbass it has a limit of 3000hz. However when you look at the freq response there's a steep roll off after 2000hz at 12db. Best I would suggest is to have them running at 1600hz at 12db with tweeter running of from 1800db at 12db slope. No harm in running the tweeter at 12db as long as it's fs value is below 1000hz.
Keep the LPF on the midbass at 63hz with 24db slope. Will protect your midbass.
Try and seal all the gaps around the spacer. Minor leaks can affect the result with the morels.
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Old 26th July 2010, 21:22   #191
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Lightbulb Quasi-Active 4 Way setup ??

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Esp when you are awaiting the Tweeter in another 1 week
I should have included a <Touchwood> in there (Cant we have an icon for that ??)

Really, my patience is tested to its limits. So damn hard to get the things i want from US. Even though i am ready with Vitamin M, Logistics is becoming a real issue(the same reason i let go of my p99 rs)

Anyway, the latest update is Tweeter wont make it till this Sep first week (ok, now Touch wood for that)

I am just contemplating if a Quasi-Active 4 way setup is possible. I already have the FG'ed A-Pillar ready from my previous setup.
This will materialize like this;
MId Bass will have its BP between 63 hz to 700 hz
High will have a 4" Mid Range that can take on from (HPF) 700 hz and have a passive crossover that divides the Tweeters at 3500 Hz
Low will have a Sub that takes LPF @ 63 hz.

The Advantage:
  1. I wont experience 'Banana Skin' effect*. What is this ? - When you peel of a banana (fruit, lol), some layers stick on to the Skin. Similar Anology drawn is, when you are crossovering at critical frequency ranges (like 2 kHz-3 kHz), there is a possibility that the male voice comes from Midbasses and the Female voice comes from tweeters. This can somewhat spoil the overall sound Imaging.
  2. Tweeters are doubly protected, wont run the risk of damaging them, with wrong Xover selection / More Power given
  3. My Superb A- Pillar in FG can be used
  4. Overall sound Stage is better (as with most 3-way speaker setups)
  5. No need to hunt Tweeter specific Amps, Damn, i can plug in my RF Power Amp to them and give a real Blast.
The Disadvantage:
  1. My Aim of building a Fully active setup (absolutley no Xovers) is sacrificed
  2. Power wasted my introducing the passive Crossovers
  3. I need to fabricate a Similar FG, in case i change the setup to a new car
  4. More Damage here; because cost of high end tweeter + high end Amp for tweeters is more than cost of 4" High end Component set
Need your Comments on this dilemma, Gurus ?



* - Leveraged from naughty 001

Last edited by Mi10 : 26th July 2010 at 21:24.
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Old 27th July 2010, 00:01   #192
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Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
I should have included a <Touchwood> in there (Cant we have an icon for that ??)

Really, my patience is tested to its limits. So damn hard to get the things i want from US. Even though i am ready with Vitamin M, Logistics is becoming a real issue(the same reason i let go of my p99 rs)

Anyway, the latest update is Tweeter wont make it till this Sep first week (ok, now Touch wood for that)

I am just contemplating if a Quasi-Active 4 way setup is possible. I already have the FG'ed A-Pillar ready from my previous setup.
This will materialize like this;
MId Bass will have its BP between 63 hz to 700 hz
High will have a 4" Mid Range that can take on from (HPF) 700 hz and have a passive crossover that divides the Tweeters at 3500 Hz
Low will have a Sub that takes LPF @ 63 hz.

The Advantage:
  1. I wont experience 'Banana Skin' effect*. What is this ? - When you peel of a banana (fruit, lol), some layers stick on to the Skin. Similar Anology drawn is, when you are crossovering at critical frequency ranges (like 2 kHz-3 kHz), there is a possibility that the male voice comes from Midbasses and the Female voice comes from tweeters. This can somewhat spoil the overall sound Imaging.
  2. Tweeters are doubly protected, wont run the risk of damaging them, with wrong Xover selection / More Power given
  3. My Superb A- Pillar in FG can be used
  4. Overall sound Stage is better (as with most 3-way speaker setups)
  5. No need to hunt Tweeter specific Amps, Damn, i can plug in my RF Power Amp to them and give a real Blast.
The Disadvantage:
  1. My Aim of building a Fully active setup (absolutley no Xovers) is sacrificed
  2. Power wasted my introducing the passive Crossovers
  3. I need to fabricate a Similar FG, in case i change the setup to a new car
  4. More Damage here; because cost of high end tweeter + high end Amp for tweeters is more than cost of 4" High end Component set
Need your Comments on this dilemma, Gurus ?



* - Leveraged from naughty 001
Run the midbass in active mode under mid section.
Under the tweeter section run the mids and tweeter via the passive xover with the xover set at 700 hz at 12db slope.
sub goes under sub section.
You can use the TA on tweeter and mid as its on the Apiller. Midbass can have it's own TA.
There will be some phase shift on the passive xover which you may need to check by reversing the polarity to get the best result.
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Old 27th July 2010, 11:49   #193
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i recall that somewhere along the line we have had this exact discussion before

its fine to run the sub as you suggest and also the midbass drivers is no problem - but then you seem to want to run the midrange and tweeters passive

so yes you can do this but you will have to build a passive crossover purpose-built for the job

you cannot take a three way crossover and just leave out the midbasses - this will over time damage the crossover and then the speaker drivers and theres two reasons for this the amp will provide the power to be split three ways and the tweeter and midrange circuits will pass those on to the speaker drivers but the midbass ones dont - this most likely means that the power becomes just heat cos its going nowhere and its also wasted - and then also nt having the speakers in the powered circuit most likely means that the crossover sees this as a dead short - which definitely damages the crossover and all the other drivers connected to it

so you need a two way passive crossover for your specific drivers - you cannot just take any old passive and make it work ie differing driver impedances change the crossover point so you cant use a 4ohm driver in a crossover built for an 8 ohm driver because you will get response dips or peaks - and also certain crossovers potentially have driver attenuation and also sometimes impedance compensation built in and that impedance compensation circuit is not universal for every driver

so the concept is fine providing you are able to build the crossover and dont try to use any funny combination's that were not built for the speakers you want to use because thats like normally wearing size 6 shoes but because you dont like the look of any available size 6 shoes you decide to buy a pair of size 12 shoes cos they look better
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Old 27th July 2010, 11:57   #194
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Nitin,

Fully Agreed. However, think you got me wrong.
My intention was never to use a 3 way crossover here.
  1. Midbasses will run Active
  2. Woofer will run active
  3. For the Tweeter + Midrange - I was thinking of using a 4" 2 way Components (4" Midrange + 1' Tweeter + 2 way Passive Xover @ 3200 Hz) - This is a readymade, of shelf item - (Morel Dotec Ovation 4" Compos)
Alternatively, for the 3rd point, I can source independent Drivers for Midrange and Tweeter and Build my own Crossover

Hope i am clear in my query. Now, let me know which is better and why

Last edited by Mi10 : 27th July 2010 at 11:59.
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Old 27th July 2010, 12:54   #195
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Nitin,

Fully Agreed. However, think you got me wrong.
My intention was never to use a 3 way crossover here.
  1. Midbasses will run Active
  2. Woofer will run active
  3. For the Tweeter + Midrange - I was thinking of using a 4" 2 way Components (4" Midrange + 1' Tweeter + 2 way Passive Xover @ 3200 Hz) - This is a readymade, of shelf item - (Morel Dotec Ovation 4" Compos)
Alternatively, for the 3rd point, I can source independent Drivers for Midrange and Tweeter and Build my own Crossover

Hope i am clear in my query. Now, let me know which is better and why
Where do plan to place the Dotech midwoofer. If it was done you could probably use it on the A-piller.
The best alternative could be Morel Integra Ovation XO4". You could also bi-amp this. And the Placement will act as one single source point for mid and highs. Less complication on using the TA. The TA parameter could work better on mid and highs unlike the comps where there will some difference in distance parameter of the mid and tweeter.

There is a way you could also run all 3, tweeter, mid and midbass active on Headunit and sub can run with the help xover on the ext. amplifier.
But you need to know the distance of the each driver from the listening point and which of the driver is the closest to the ear.
Will elaborate this latter in the evening.
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