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Old 27th December 2009, 11:01   #1
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Default Tweeter placement and Pod?

It's time to setup Car audio, I am not clear about the Tweeter Placement and pods they should sit it.The setup is:-
Speakers:-Esotec242, the frequence crossover is 2.2k hz, 'll be running passive with 140w each side.Car is swift, the Midbass 'll be located in stock location(door).
Help me with tweeter placement and it's enclosure.Read on Internet that spherical enclosure helps in defusing the reflectiosn to an extent.Is circular enclosure beneficial or by just dropping the tweet into a sphere won't do any good.
Following is the link of tech specs of the tweeter, it's response both on n off axis starts beamimg around 5k hz.
Dynaudio - Technical Specifications Soft Dome Tweeter MD 102.
Second options is kick pannel,But I am not keen for it, reason being:-1)Obstructions, when some body is on other seat.2) safety os speakers.
Third Option is A-pillars.
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Old 27th December 2009, 14:12   #2
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There is not much you can read from that provided graph unless you know the scale they use ie what frequency each of those vertical lines represent but the facts are that the closer to on axis you have the speaker the more it plays like it has a flat response. if you look properly after 5khz the next figure stated is 50khz and the roll of is occurring at some point close to the middle of those two figures, so the beaming and directionality of the speakers could probably begin after 20khz, at which point even though the speaker is playing something, the average person will not hear it.

Since i have used the speaker set you wish to purchase i can tell you that to my ears the speaker is very neutral. It does not add any excitement to music nor would it take it away. it is a bit laid back to people who prefer a livelier sound with loads of detail but then some of the livelier speakers could also be described as bright. Some people wont like this speaker because they will feel it too flat but running it in will address that to an extent ie it will sound better after its been played in for more than 200 hours or so

The best results i have had are with the speakers set as such

I had the midrange drivers in the doors on appropriate baffles

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Then i attached the tweeters onto the A-pillar (more-or less 90 degrees off axis ie this means that they faced across the pillars and at each other)

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They were attached to the a-pillar like this

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The sound when they were installed in this manner could have been overly neutral but the proximity of the tweeters to my ears actually assisted in this regard and with a bit of tuning i had an excellent soundstage with very pinpoint imaging (this is only if you are into SQ)

I also tried the spherical bit and also experimented with the on axis and off axis bit like so

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then i tried them totally on axis and also like so at around 30 degrees off axis as well as a bit higher up the pillar but still in the stock tweeter location

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then i also tried them a bit lower down the pillar and actually at around dash height but the steering column hump was killing the imaging due to the reflections caused at this lower height, note that i was using some pliant temporary type of putty to hold the tennis balls in place just to experiment with the positioning ie i didnt permanently mount them anywhere (the commercial brand name of that stuff is prestik here in South Africa - elsewhere i have heard of it referred to as blue tac)

i still preferred the sound as it was in the top scenario without the tennis balls, for some strange reason i managed to tune it very close to audiophile standards in that configuration and it sounded very good according to my taste and preference
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Old 27th December 2009, 16:00   #3
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I also went from off-axis to on axis in the similar way. The off-axis did not offered good sound.
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Old 28th December 2009, 09:16   #4
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I would prefer to mount tweeter on dash,A-pillars require fabrication and will loose the stock look.I would prefer to have a setup, which would sound decent for both the front seats.

Lbm liked on-axis where as Nitin prefer off-axis(No doubts that the comps were different).
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Old 28th December 2009, 10:05   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gill View Post
I would prefer to mount tweeter on dash,A-pillars require fabrication and will loose the stock look.I would prefer to have a setup, which would sound decent for both the front seats.

Lbm liked on-axis where as Nitin prefer off-axis(No doubts that the comps were different).
Just asking who is Nitin ? And about on-axis or off-axis choose what you like not what others like. Try listen to both the setting and keep what you like the most.
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Old 28th December 2009, 10:20   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gill View Post
Lbm liked on-axis where as Nitin prefer off-axis(No doubts that the comps were different).
off axis resonse for most tweeters is rolled off post 10kHz or so. I can only assume LBM prefers a brighter sound that Naughty.
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Old 28th December 2009, 11:27   #7
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
off axis resonse for most tweeters is rolled off post 10kHz or so. I can only assume LBM prefers a brighter sound that Naughty.
Or we can say I want a little details in my sound !!!! And due to the turban a lots of LPF is there...LOL
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Old 28th December 2009, 11:59   #8
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I suppose either ways you would need some fabrication to mount those tweeters as per the size. To start with A-pillers can prove to be a good location. But, at times depending on the car and it's windscreen angle is, could result in a lot of reflection. In some cars A-pillers works the best whether on or off-axis.
I worked around listening different position on my Morel Tweeters. So, far have been listening them off-axis on the stock location on A-piller which falls at 90deg, off-axis and 3" higher the dashboard.
Though there wasn't much difference in on-axis or off-axis I found that having them 45-60deg off-axis, resulted in little added details from it, facing it towards the rear view mirror in the center. It sounded full, added a little more space compared to the stock location. I experimented with the 90deg offaxis A piller stock mounting where I covered the entire windscreen with open cell foam from inside and immediately noticed the highs were much more smoother and blended well with mids on the higher volume, ofcourse this is not practical for everyday use but it helped understand how the morel tweeter can sound at it's best. Reflection plays the spoil sport when you go higher up on the volume. In the end, placed the tweeter in a sphere enclosure just like Naughty has done, keeping the tweeter facing the rear view mirror, and it blended extremely well, giving an illusion that it's all coming off the center, all thanks to reducing the diffraction and some amount reflection off the windscreen.
Finally, came to the conclusion of planning on the sphere enclosure, will be getting it fabricated without hampering the stock look.

I say try out different location and angles first. See what suits the best to your taste. Some like more brighter with details, some prefer it to be a bit laid back. Secondly feed them a lot of power and they would get better and better.

Last edited by Invinsible : 28th December 2009 at 12:06.
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Old 28th December 2009, 12:33   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
Just asking who is Nitin ?
LOL, that would be my name, and he knows it because we corresponded via PM about some post i made above and i always sign my PM's off with my proper name - it just seems like a more friendly thing to do

there are probably many people who have the same name on here, which is why choosing nicknames is a good idea for internet forums otherwise we would be always confused about who is who

Quote:
I say try out different location and angles first. See what suits the best to your taste. Some like more brighter with details, some prefer it to be a bit laid back. Secondly feed them a lot of power and they would get better and better.
i agree about the power aspect, initially i was running them with 200 watts per channel active so the tweets were getting 200 watts RMS as well then i tried my new amplifier and fed the tweets only 75 watts and the mids 200 watts apiece and the tweeters were way livelier with the 200 watts going to them

Quote:
Or we can say I want a little details in my sound !!!! And due to the turban a lots of LPF is there...LOL
for me i actually got a more open and wider soundstage hence more details at any particular spot in the soundstage while it was off axis, even though it does tend to get slightly more laid back. I also found it had way more three dimensional depth, but the difference in preference i suppose stems from the fact that i dont tend to move lots of "Violent Bass Air" from the sub. In fact my bass is generally only about as loud as an average pair of 6x9's but it does play lower than the 6x9's because you do hear and feel a lot more detail in the music as far as bass is concerned, but i play my bass no louder than the midrange and treble anyway, so my system response would tend to be very linear (note not flat but linear) even when it is loud

Quote:
(No doubts that the comps were different).
Nope,i have an identical system 242 as in the first few posts of this thread, so basically the same speakers

Last edited by naughty001 : 28th December 2009 at 12:46.
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Old 28th December 2009, 13:38   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
In the end, placed the tweeter in a sphere enclosure just like Naughty has done, keeping the tweeter facing the rear view mirror
Finally, came to the conclusion of planning on the sphere enclosure, will be getting it fabricated without hampering the stock look.
Do post some pics of the pods!Facing or pointing rear view mirror?I assume you mean pointing, then they must be playing at 60deg off-axis.
Did you use balancing or TA or Mix of both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post
LOL, that would be my name,
i agree about the power aspect, initially i was running them with 200 watts per channel active so the tweets were getting 200 watts RMS as well then i tried my new amplifier and fed the tweets only 75 watts and the mids 200 watts apiece and the tweeters were way livelier with the 200 watts going to them
Nope,i have an identical system 242 as in the first few posts of this thread, so basically the same speakers
Thanks for clarification to LBM, Naughty!
I wrote about Your's and LBM's speakers(242 and Dls respectively) not your's and mine.

As I mentioned Comps would be getting 140W a side in passive,lets see How is turns out to be.
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Old 28th December 2009, 19:49   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
Or we can say I want a little details in my sound !!!!
its no hard rule that a driver will sohnd more 'detailed'.it all depends upon the driver on axis and off axis response.
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Old 28th December 2009, 20:20   #12
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Quote:
I wrote about Your's and LBM's speakers(242 and Dls respectively) not your's and mine.
oh yeah from that point of view you are correct, they are different speaker sets BUT if i recall correctly and if im not totally mistaken LBM has installed a Dynaudio set for someone so i assumed that he was talking about that set. Just shows that i need to stop assuming, so it was my bad. Apologies for the misunderstanding

BTW as an aside in terms of details if that is what really "floats your boat" then you need to experience the MB Quart Q-lines. The detail on those speakers is so sharp it cuts you like a knife LOL but thats definitely a set of speakers suited to using with a really pounding setup (like LBM would have) because it would tend to be a little on the overbright side for most people - personally for me when i ran those passively even attenuating the tweeter to -6db was not enough, in order for me to get those to sound right i had to run them active and use a lower gain on the tweeter to tame those a bit more (restrict the input voltage to the tweeter amp channels) but when you set them properly they can have excessive amounts of detail in fact some people would say they sound "hyper real" and are definitely the most detailed car speakers i have ever heard
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Old 28th December 2009, 20:26   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zucchero View Post
its no hard rule that a driver will sohnd more 'detailed'.it all depends upon the driver on axis and off axis response.
I did not get you here. Are you try to say that the off- axis response can be good than the on-axis for some drivers ???

Or

You are saying that the detailing of sound will not depend on on-off axis

Please clarify

Quote:
Originally Posted by naughty001 View Post

BTW as an aside in terms of details if that is what really "floats your boat" then you need to experience the MB Quart Q-lines. The detail on those speakers is so sharp it cuts you like a knife LOL but thats definitely a set of speakers suited to using with a really pounding setup (like LBM would have) because it would tend to be a little on the overbright side for most people -

I am using a normal dome tweeter + Compression horns in the front stage for the highs duty. But they are newer tuned in any way to make the ears bleed...LOL...It is only when I am giving a demo they are turned up. Hope you get my point.

Last edited by low_bass_makker : 28th December 2009 at 20:32.
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Old 28th December 2009, 21:13   #14
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Hey Nitin/guys, can you please shed a little 'light' on using a sphere as a mount for tweeters? How does that help- in reducing reflections etc.? And is cutting a tennis ball into two and using the two halves for mounts really helpful in getting any more detailing from the tweeters?
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Old 28th December 2009, 21:52   #15
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Originally Posted by greenh0rn View Post
Hey Nitin/guys, can you please shed a little 'light' on using a sphere as a mount for tweeters? How does that help- in reducing reflections etc.? And is cutting a tennis ball into two and using the two halves for mounts really helpful in getting any more detailing from the tweeters?
The tennis ball makes the tweeter without a baffle which helps to reduces the reflections. Also the a piller installation which Nitin is having will causes reflections due to the windshield which has been explained by Invisible by his install. I am using same position which Invisible is using the tweeter are facing the RVM....This picture will explain better

off-axis
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on-axis
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Nitin (Naughty) is using off-axis which might cause more reflections but I think he is satisfied from the result. But Me and Invisible are using the on-axis one. Do not know about Mr Lucky Singh (Zuchero) but from the pics of his thread it looks a on- axis one...

Also in the off- axis install the left tweeter would be approx 60 degree from the listener and the right tweeter would be 30 degree from the listener. But in the case of the on-axis the right tweeter would be 30 degree and the left tweeter would be 0 degree. That is why the on-axis has better detailing.

Last edited by low_bass_makker : 28th December 2009 at 22:04.
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