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Old 19th September 2005, 14:10   #46
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you mean to say that percieved loudness in the home is different from percieved loudness in a car. meaning that while 3db is barely perceptable at home 3db is very perceptable in the car?

Last edited by navin : 19th September 2005 at 14:11.
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Old 19th September 2005, 14:29   #47
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I'm defintely waiting for JB's answer on this one.
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Old 19th September 2005, 14:32   #48
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maybe these links can help clear things....

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/programs/bio...ices/app_g.pdf

http://www.westchestergov.com/planni...0-%20Noise.pdf

a 3b difference i feel is just as perceptable at home as it is in a car. in fact thanks to masking from road noise this difference might be less perceptable in a car. the minimum perceptable difference is about 1db. 3db is still barely perceptable and a 10db difference feel twice as loud., home, car or boat.
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Old 19th September 2005, 14:36   #49
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I agree navin. I find the perceptible difference the same, but logically what you're saying makes sense.
JB?
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Old 19th September 2005, 14:42   #50
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Sam, JB, I dont want to pull rank or age here but most of what i say comes from my direct expereince (hence you dont see me recommending HUs or Amps unless I have had some expereince with them) some of these experinces have been quantified by somewhat controlled experiments. Our ears are very odd. We need a good jump in power to hear a difference but we can detect a 0.5db difference in the midrange (such as small changes in the diffraction compensation of a loudspeaker). For most ofthese experiments I use my wife and sister (when she is in town) as they dont care to know about the changes i am making just the difference they are hearing.

there are 2 reasons i post links.

a) All of them explain things better and clearer than I ever could.
b) saves me from typing! :-)
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Old 19th September 2005, 17:11   #51
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Quote:
Your speakers will sound just fine if your power them from a 30rms x 4 output of an amplifier. The amplifier will produce clean 30 watts of power. But its not the same with a HU, which says 30 x 4. Power the speakers from a HU and you will start getting distortion from the speakers as you turn up the volume.

I have been reading lots of article about car sound system for the last few days and all of these have mentioned that spk should be overpowered than underpowered and amplifier's power should match upper limit of spk's power.If underlowered spk will be dead.

I am planning to buy either Audiobhan ABC 525T 2-120 W RMS OR Infinty Reference 5010s 2-75 W RMS as front spk and Audiobahn ACS2050N 2-80 W RMS or Infinty reference 5012 2-45 W RMS.
AND KENWOOD IS OFFERING AMPLIFIER 30W*4 FOR JUST 99$ WHICH I THINK IS VERY GOOD BUY.

But this confused me bcoz all the spk have upper limit from 45 to 120 and so amplifier's power is not matching either pks's upper limit.

And guys if i go for kenwood combo,how u guys rate kenwood HU as compared to Alpine especially 9847?


Thanx in advance...............
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Old 19th September 2005, 17:56   #52
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Navin I am not saying that you can't percieve the difference in home. Its just that in car you percieve the difference much easier in car between 50 W and 100 W amplifier.

And its much easier to go loud and percieve loudness in car than at home. I have already mentioned the factors in my previous post.

You can't compare the two...two are completely different environments.

We installed Image Dynamics CXS62 Components in a Mercedes C Class which were running off an Alpine MRV-F407 amplifier rated at 50 Watts in 4 ohms. When we changed it to TRU Technology T4.100V2 (100 Watts in 4Ohms). Difference in control, loudness, clarity was so evident that everyone could notice that. Even the customer, who scraped his Alpine and bought TRU.

And the end of the day he did not read any specification or figures...he went by his ears.

Its just not loudness which comes with extra power, there is more to it like control, clarity, lower distortion etc,
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Old 19th September 2005, 19:29   #53
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To put an end to the discussion between high power amp and a medium powered amplifier, I must say that more power is always preffered to less power. The difference is audible to ears, but end of the day it all boils down to how much we are willing to spend for that extra gain.
The graph between higher powered amplifier and audible difference is not linear, and the curve tends to even out at high end.
However I feel more important than getting more power, is focussing on better cabling. Autophile, are you aware of any good installers in Delhi? I am planning to install Blanpunkt GTA 470 amp, its got 70 Watts RMS * 4 at 4 ohms and 200 Watts in bridged mode. I am concerned that most installers just cut the cables and install without using proper jacks. I want to make sure that the installer uses pre-amp output from my Sony 8800 as opposed to speaker level output to save his time and money! So looking for some installer who uses pre-amp RCA lead and does a proffesional job!

Last edited by aseem : 19th September 2005 at 19:31.
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Old 19th September 2005, 23:35   #54
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1. the kenwood offer is only for Kenwood HUs.

2. JB, you are saying that in a car 3db difference is more easily percived than at home. 3db is 3db to our ears not more, not less. the 2 amps you compared are not equal. I am sure if you test the 2 on a bench you will find that the Tru. dumped more current, had more dynamic headroom, could handle reactive loads better, etc...that is what i think you heard. it is like (I am exagerating the case here but you get the point) comparing a 50W Krell Power amp to a 50W sony. A 50W Krell would handle Wilson's Watt (the original with the 1.3 ohm impedance low) with aplomb, the 50W sony would activate it's protection circuits.

yes Home and Car are 2 very different enviroment. the home is quiet. the car has road noise. the home has no ground loops. the car is full of them. etc.... in fact these differences just might work in favour of the smaller amp as the handicaps in the car may neutralize some of the advantages of the beefier amp (by beefier i mean more than watts). what is the weight of the Tru amp and the Alpine? I'd choose the Tru over the Alpine too. What is the cost difference?

3. More power is better than less power, i agree, but that dont change the way the ears percieves loudness; that is what we are discussing here - the way the ear percieves loudness. ref: post 48

Last edited by navin : 19th September 2005 at 23:47.
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Old 19th September 2005, 23:44   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsjaurr
I am planning to buy either Audiobhan ABC 525T 2-120 W RMS OR Infinty Reference 5010s 2-75 W RMS as front spk and Audiobahn ACS2050N 2-80 W RMS or Infinty reference 5012 2-45 W RMS.
AND KENWOOD IS OFFERING AMPLIFIER 30W*4 FOR JUST 99$ WHICH I THINK IS VERY GOOD BUY...
Dont sweat the small stuff.

those power ratings are very vague guides.

If the speaker is 90db sens over much of the audio freq. spectrum then at 3-3.5w it will be loud enough. add another 10db of headroom and a 30-35W amp will work ok.

if the speaker is 87db you'll need 6-7W to get to my goal of about 95db and 60-70W if you are looking at 10db of headroom.

95db is quite loud. I have heard louder but at 95db prolonged listening (45 minutes and longer) can permanently damage your hearing.

I would be more concerned with the sonic signature of the speakers that all this wattage stuff.
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Old 20th September 2005, 10:59   #56
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Like I told Navin,
I believe that a human ear's ability to percieve differences are in fact diminished in the car, than in an ideal listening environment.
What with different unmatched drivers, different crossover points at wierd locations, diferent amplifiers that arent even based on the same basic build technology, in a small environment, with intense sound reflection all around, coupled with the fact that the listener is never really facing the speaker at any point and the stage fires all around him a few feet away. AND like the man says, with ambient noise at it's peak...
Geez, at a higher volume, it's sometimes difficult to point out a clipped signal.
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Old 20th September 2005, 13:44   #57
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Quote:
I am planning to buy either Audiobhan ABC 525T 2-120 W RMS OR Infinty Reference 5010s 2-75 W RMS as front spk and Audiobahn ACS2050N 2-80 W RMS or Infinty reference 5012 2-45 W RMS.
AND KENWOOD IS OFFERING AMPLIFIER 30W*4 FOR JUST 99$ WHICH I THINK IS VERY GOOD BUY.
If you are planning to buy reference series speakers then its better to get an amp with more output. More power to our speaker is always better than less power (what you have read is right). Say around 60/70w rms x4. But, the 30w rms x 4 amp will work fine as well. And the price is a bargain.

Quote:
And guys if i go for kenwood combo,how u guys rate kenwood HU as compared to Alpine especially 9847?
Alpine HU's are definitely better than Kenwood HU's.
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Old 20th September 2005, 13:54   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5u3zEr0
Alpine HU's are definitely better than Kenwood HU's.
Alpines are definitely better but there latest series 985X had a problem where people couldnt eject CDs etc. I believe this issue was fixed, but its good to check. Alpines are also not so good in their radio reception. imo Alpines are too complicated to use for a non technology savy user (like our parents). They are loaded with features, and you really have to spend time with HU to get to know them and tweak them. If you are willing to compromise on above issues, than go for Alpine as they give you quality sound!
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Old 20th September 2005, 14:12   #59
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Actually IMO, it's pioneer that overdo the features on their HU's making them almost impossible for parents to use. Especially the higher end ones are insane with their setting parameters.
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Old 20th September 2005, 14:26   #60
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Way too many buttons on Alpine HU's.
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