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Old 18th February 2010, 22:30   #1
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Default Not happy with thump effect need help

Need help from ICE Guru's,

I recently re-built my 2003 Accent and decided to upgrade my ICE set-up as well, here's the set-up currently in my car

HU:

Sony Xplode VCD with built in AUX (not sure of RCA)

Speaker:

Pioneer Front: 13cm 2-Way Speaker

Pioneer Rare: 6" x 9" 5-Way Speaker

Amplifier:

JBL GT5-S644

800-Watt 4-Channel Full-Range Amplifier with on-board variable electronic Crossover and variable Bass EQ on rear channels.

India JBL

Woofer:

JBL CS 1215 (enclosed in Senun high end box)

1100 Watt

India JBL


After listening to Pioneer and JBL Woofer set-up I bought JBL as my music is mostly Hip-Hop n Rap and I loved the way JBL was thumping.

However after installation in my car the thump effect started irritating my ears so I went to my ICE dealer to check the problem and got a new wiring set done again.

After that the nightmare has begun: thump effect is still missing and vocals are killed by woofer

Suggestions from my ICE dealer:

Problem is with Sony HU by new model
Also need capacitor to balance the load.

My queries:

I have seen Alto's running on 3 amps n woofer without capacitors I still drive a Accent which has a bigger battery so whats the need capacitor?

I do partially believe that Sony HU sucks big time but its a high end VCD player with AUX (not to mentioned I was 1 of the idiots who bought it at high cost when it was released first in market). So do I require HU upgrade?

I know there are many threads going on but these JBL components are recently launched with higher capacity of delivery compared to old ones so please help me...

I do have alpine V12 2 channel amp spare with me which I wanted to use to power my rare speakers but ICE Dealer said its not required JBL 800 W amp is more than enough so Alpine amp is still with me.

Should I listen to my ICE dealer and upgrade my HU and add capacitor or any other expert advice???
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Old 18th February 2010, 23:15   #2
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Avoid capacitor, but yes do look in for a new HU.

BTW What power cables are you using ?
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Old 18th February 2010, 23:26   #3
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what i think is wrong with your setup
1. no comps in front
2. one size fits all boxes may not have proper tuning.
3. sony HU - you could do better
4. your whole setup might need some tuning on the whole
5. can you post a snap of the alpine amp? there are a lot of fakes floating about
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Old 19th February 2010, 00:00   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viraj_s85 View Post
Sony Xplode VCD with built in AUX
Pioneer Front: 13cm 2-Way Speaker
Pioneer Rare: 6" x 9" 5-Way Speaker
JBL GT5-S644
JBL CS 1215
However after installation in my car the thump effect started irritating my ears

After that the nightmare has begun: thump effect is still missing and vocals are killed by woofer

so whats the need capacitor?
I do partially believe that Sony HU
I do have alpine V12 2 channel amp:
1. Is the box as per specs mentioned by the manufacturer?
2. Are the 12" woofer and the rear 6x9s in phase?
3. Is the box well made and properly designed (sealed or ported).

I wold show the car to your installer and another and maybe even a friend. I suspect a poor install....and yes you can disable the capacitor.
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Old 19th February 2010, 00:05   #5
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Start with checking the crossover settings on the HU and the amplifier. What model is that Sony HU?
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Old 19th February 2010, 00:57   #6
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I think your using the Sony-6800 VCD model which i assume is decent when compared to some entry level HU's.There is absolutely nothing wrong but just a simple tunning issues which can be solved within minutes to get a good effect in your existing system Caps not needed.

Ramie

Last edited by ramie2400 : 19th February 2010 at 01:00.
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Old 19th February 2010, 01:10   #7
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It looks like a serious tuning problem.
Apart from suggestion and queries put up you need to check on
1. what's xover point used on the speakers ?
2. Need to check on the gain setting on speakers as well as sub ?
3. Enclosure size used on the sub ? CS1215 requires about 1.25 cu.ft of internal volume. Put up the out dimension to help determine what could be the enclosure size. Enclosure needs to be airtight made of MDF wood of 3/4" in thickness.

4. As Navinji suggest check for the phase/polarity. Both +/- of speakers should be connected in phase with the amp i.e. to the +/- of the amp.
5. Keep the setting on Headunit like the bass and treble or any EQ off before setting up the amp and xover points.

Your problem might resolve once you rectify these points, if not then we got to think of other alternative.

Last edited by Invinsible : 19th February 2010 at 01:15.
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Old 19th February 2010, 03:33   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
1. Is the box as per specs mentioned by the manufacturer?
2. Are the 12" woofer and the rear 6x9s in phase?
3. Is the box well made and properly designed (sealed or ported).

I wold show the car to your installer and another and maybe even a friend. I suspect a poor install....and yes you can disable the capacitor.
The Box is well made for sure as its a brand new quite solid. Speakers are mounted in Wooden tray (I use to have Sony 800W woofer in tray)

Guys if any one of you are near by Thane (Mumbai) area please suggest me trusted ICE dealer who can check the problem and fix it . Weekends I am free if some1 can accompany me will be great help.. Lunch on me

Last edited by bblost : 19th February 2010 at 10:54. Reason: back 2 back post. Please use edit post if posting within 20 mins. Thanks.
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Old 19th February 2010, 10:46   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viraj_s85 View Post
The Box is well made for sure as its a brand new quite solid. Speakers are mounted in Wooden tray (I use to have Sony 800W woofer in tray)
1. The NET internal volume of the box should be 1.25 cu. ft.
2. This is Tuning issue. The Components you have seem to be good, unless they are damaged.

Viraj, Surely you will realise that without actually listening to your system the advice TBHPians can give is limited. You do need to to get your system to someone knowledgeable and who will spend a little time listening to it.
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Old 19th February 2010, 11:06   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
The Components you have seem to be good, unless they are damaged.
The components are good enough to give you a good thump. Which wiring kit did you use? Most of the power loss is due to the quality of wiring.

You do get a JBL wiring kit. And during the car service if your car battery was disconnected for some reason, the amp needs to be tuned again.
A lot depends on the Equalizer settings too.
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Old 19th February 2010, 21:02   #11
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Here are the some pics... All these components are brand new (week old),

I am not sure of the wiring used. Can any1 please suggest a experience installer in Thane or Mulund area who can fix this problem.

I was also thinking of using my spare Alpine amp to power rare speakers so that vocals will be enhanced but not too sure how it will work
Attached Thumbnails
Not happy with thump effect need help-sdc11274.jpg  

Not happy with thump effect need help-sdc11272.jpg  

Not happy with thump effect need help-sdc11273.jpg  

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Old 19th February 2010, 22:54   #12
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looks like u got the ported box that's not tune right. Designing a ported box can be tricky, in your case I guess the issue is with the enclosure and tuning on the amp. Get a sealed enclosure and get the amp tuned right.
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Old 20th February 2010, 00:00   #13
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box is fine. sub is fine. so is the amp. what is wrong is the crossover settings. Sanen makes great boxes. No doubt about it. The sub might sound 'off' (disjointed/boomy) with an incorrect enclosure. The 'thump' doesn't disappear. It's just incorrect tuning.

Last edited by frankmehta : 20th February 2010 at 00:01.
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Old 20th February 2010, 01:10   #14
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@navin : I have tried both original CD's and my Sony Blutooth headset in AUX which I usually use to play songs (works well as Car Phone and Song Player)
But its more boooomy my ears started paining literally...

@frankmehta : I am gone try few installers over weekend to fix this problem in Thane area, If you know any1 kindly suggest...

Hopefully this weekend I will be playing "Smoke Alarm" (song from American Pie 7 - Book Of Love) in car with big smile on my face .. all fingers crossed
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Old 20th February 2010, 01:32   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
box is fine. sub is fine. so is the amp. what is wrong is the crossover settings. Sanen makes great boxes. No doubt about it. The sub might sound 'off' (disjointed/boomy) with an incorrect enclosure. The 'thump' doesn't disappear. It's just incorrect tuning.
Sorry to disagree but the main thing that determines how a subwoofer sounds is the enclosure - the crossover point is important but not as much as the tuning that the port will create. Building good boxes is not only just a matter of good construction quality with decent materials and workmanship but its more dependent on building according ot the parameters of the speaker concerned

The port can be too long or too short which will cause all type of peaks or cancellations in your response, a ported box is the fussiest thing to build because its not just the port design thats important. You have to take into account the size of the enclosure as well as the port diameter as well as the port length. If any one of those aspects is not correct then it means that the tuning created by the enclosure definitely goes way out and this is why it is more often recommended that you should build a sealed enclosure because a sealed enclosure could deviate from the only thing that can assist tuning ie its size by a percentage of 20% either way and still work decently .... by contrast a ported enclosure needs all of those things to be 100% correct

As for the concept of thump, that is not really music. when you listen to a set of drums unamplified or even a bass guitar or double bass or a Cello you will never ever hear a thump. So why it is that people like to hear an unrealistic thump is a mystery to me since that is not entirely musical. The subwoofer was originally designed to provide the lowest reaches of frequencies that these instruments can provide and when tuned properly will just add a "feeling" of warm richness to the sound instead of huge thumping sounds that can blast you into orbit ..... but then again that is probably a subject for another thread and not this one

The bottom line is that if you use a ported enclosure then you need the enclosure to be modeled with good computer software since even the manufacturers recommendations will be a compromise between good sound and pure unadulterated output. As i have said earlier it is critical to get the correct size to the actual enclosure and then the correct port length according to the diameter of the port. Even then if the design causes dips and peaks you may need some EQ to compensate .... but remember that if incorrect tuning causes a null due to cancellation you can never EQ it back up again and that dip will get worse or remain the same no matter how much you try to pick up that particular frequency .... which is why as invinsible has said ported boxes are tricky

then besides for the crossover point even the phase of the speaker could affect its tuning. Sometimes ive found that reversing the polarity which will reverse the mechanical phase can correct for acoustical phase (this is what determines arrival times of the sound to the ear) so you need to experiment with the polarity as well

if the box is correct and the crossover point is correct and the phase is correct then it your expectation that is at fault. These expectations could be borne out of listening to incorrectly adjusted systems that correspond to what you "prefer" which could in actual fact be very inaccurate sound however satisfying it may be to you .... sorry if this comes across as a bit of a lecture - that is not the intention but im just trying to make people understand that if you build a ported box you have to be spot on in everything its not just a matter of building a good solid box and just sticking a bit of pipe in it to create a port

the idea behind a ported box is to have the speaker give you some output but to make the rear wave do some work by reflecting from the inside of the enclosure then entering the port where it is tuned by the diameter and length of the port to exit from the port mouth in phase with the output of the speaker driver - the combined outputs of the speaker and the port make it seems like there are more speakers present hence why the output on a ported box i between 3db and 6 db more than a typical sealed box. the problem is that for the ported box to work you have to make the enclosure the size that it would have taken for two speakers to work (more or less) so that it can sound like there are actually two speakers there. and if the port length or diameter is incorrect then you are causing lots of phase errors or cancellations ie the output of the port is not correctly timed with the output of the speaker and this can cause all types of unpredictable results

Hopefully this explains ported boxes a bit. Obviously if you want a different effect than perfectly flat frequency response with more output out of your box you need to know what to adjust so you can get to your preference and you have to build an incorrectly tuned box. If you adjust the wrong thing the resulting sound would not be according to your preference
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