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Old 2nd December 2005, 17:17   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
Gunbir, a couple of questions on that install.

1. why is the front component tweeter sitting on the dash? could it be installed inside the rear mirror pod? I dont like tweeters sitting on a dash as they are liable to get hit by an over zealous cleaning man.

2. The 15" woofer is sitting in the spare tyre location. I hope the owner does not intedn to use the rear space for shopping. the grill of the sub would eventually get dented and dinked if not damaged.

I also wanted to ask same 2 questions to Gunbir.I have heard that tweeter should be within 30cm of of woofer.This will be more than 30cm i think.[displacement NOT distance].

Two days back,i was checking my Getz for tweeter install [with scale] and i found two locations B & C within 30cm of woofer.One is just anterior to door opener 'B' and other on dash near AC outlet 'C',but space here is very less[also on 'A'].
Location 'A' on rear-view mirror panel is ~45 cm from woofer.


So what could be the best place for tweeters in case of Getz?


Last edited by rsjaurr : 2nd December 2005 at 17:28.
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Old 2nd December 2005, 22:19   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsjaurr
I also wanted to ask same 2 questions to Gunbir.I have heard that tweeter should be within 30cm of of woofer.This will be more than 30cm i think.[displacement NOT distance].
Why even 30cm, I wish we could do point source in all our installs. And I wish Tannoy made a Dual Concentric for the car. So though we have point source speakers, it is difficult to find cars for them.

RSJ it is difficult to get tweeter positioning right in most cars. It depends on car to car and speaker to speaker. In this car, with this speaker pair, this is what sounds best without major modification of dashboard. If you hear any car 'installed and tuned' by us, you will believe 80% of the vocals ~ highs are coming from the upper dash level. Installing is an art and given the same equipment, identical cars, no two installers work will sound alike.

To answer your specific questions, 'B' is a curved surface and if flush mounted the ring will not sit flat. Cant do 'C' cuz its more likely to get knocked out of place and with the flush ring there isnt enough space. Yes, you can do 'A' cuz you can screw the angled tweeter surface mount to the black RVM plate with shallow screws and glue. This can be done with the Hertz Energy ESK tweeters cuz they are tiny. I dont know about your Infinity tweeters. You will have to experiment.
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Old 3rd December 2005, 00:07   #108
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i prefer A only because if one is good and careful (like gun and JB are) one can easily make custom pods out of A. in most cars A can be removed and worked on a bench. working on A in a car is back breaking.

believe me guys I have great respect for gun and JB. anyone who does installs and sees their work would understand the effort it takes to do work as good as they do. I only wish they operated in south mumbai.

gun, no answer on how you protect the 15" woofer from shopping bags and such.
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Old 3rd December 2005, 00:57   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
gun, no answer on how you protect the 15" woofer from shopping bags and such.
Navinji, I did answer. See post # 105. The owner chose NOT to have the grill. Anyhow, here are the AZcomp grills. Available in sizes 8", 10", 12" and 15".



A lot of choices basically depend on that specific install. If an end user wanted, we have dealers who could hide a sub and a couple of amps in this install while retaining 95% boot space and spare wheel.

Again, I must mention here that this install was done by 'Driven' and we consider ourselves 'tools' that are there for all our dealers to use. We spend a lot of time in the workshops and that has meant our teams installs sound way different (read better). Trust me, its not the money. Its the smile on a customer's face that makes all the hard work worthwhile.
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Old 3rd December 2005, 09:57   #110
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So how does the owner protect the sub?

Gun, I know that guys like you, JB, Sam etc are not in it fo the money. trust me if you look at the return per effort the audio business (car or home) is a poor paymaster.
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Old 3rd December 2005, 10:54   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsjaurr
I also wanted to ask same 2 questions to Gunbir.I have heard that tweeter should be within 30cm of of woofer.This will be more than 30cm i think.[displacement NOT distance].
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsjaurr

Two days back,i was checking my Getz for tweeter install [with scale] and i found two locations B & C within 30cm of woofer.One is just anterior to door opener 'B' and other on dash near AC outlet 'C',but space here is very less[also on 'A'].
Location 'A' on rear-view mirror panel is ~45 cm from woofer.


So what could be the best place for tweeters in case of Getz?
In car environment its very difficult to place mids and tweeters in the vicinity of 30cm in the front stage where it is very important. In rear it is easy and not as important.

You cannot bring the midrange up, so when you move the tweeter down the soundstage and imaging goes for a six. Try experimenting by mounting coaxials and then component speakers with tweeters on the dash level. The componets will sound better with the tweeters mounted up.

At the end the distance of the tweeter and mid from the listeners ears should be identical. You will get good integrated sound.

If you have time alignment in your headunit and your system is running in active mode then you can play with the time delay of the drivers.

The best sounding driver arrangement are only possible in home audio and heavy mod car.

In some cars like Honda Accord and CRv the factory midrange location is at a good height as compared to all other cars.

The best sounding drivers are full range drivers (Lowther, Yamamura etc). One driver doing all the job but its tough to achieve because of physical limitation of size vs reproduced frequency.

The next best to these are the point source drivers (coaxials are wannabe point source). The real point source driver is Dual Concentric by Tannoy, though some of others are by KEF (Uni-Q) and Theil.

In Dual concentric driver the tweeter sits inside the voice coil of mid/woofer, with a tulip waveguide, the emission planes of tweeter and woofer make single straight line. So its absolute time and phase aligned, perfect 90deg dispertion, don't need steep slope crossovers (max second order. Once you get used to a Dual Concentric speaker you cannot listen to the multiple driver multi way system.

Shown below is the Tannoy Reference Westminster Royal, 15" Dual Concentric Driver in a compound horn configuration. Hand made in the UK and 3-4months waiting.



I can go on explaining but you have to experience it to believe.

My fav three speakers are the one with single dual concentric driver. Only in found in Tannoy Prestige Range. The others which i like are Manger (Bending Wave Driver), Magnepans (Planar Magnetics).
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Old 3rd December 2005, 13:14   #112
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JB, i think you need to visit the fullrange forum. Fostex, jordan, Tangband, and more.

we are a wierd lot. we put components in our cars and fullrange at home. most others have it backwards. :-)

all the 3 speakers you mention have their issues. but that is for another forum.
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Old 3rd December 2005, 15:58   #113
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wow!!!!!! I just cant believe u guys!!!! I really appreciate the effort these guys put in their work.For most having a good car audio system is having 4 good spk,good HU,multi channel amp and subw.But for Gunbir & JB the CAR AUDIO SYSTEM starts from here.they go right till molecular detail.....rather i should say...electron level...
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Old 3rd December 2005, 16:05   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbir
this install was done by 'Driven' and we consider ourselves 'tools' that are there for all our dealers to use. We spend a lot of time in the workshops and that has meant our teams installs sound way different (read better). Trust me, its not the money. Its the smile on a customer's face that makes all the hard work worthwhile.

I wish every pro can think same way.That day we will be proud of our country.
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Old 19th December 2005, 15:43   #115
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Hi Gunbir,

your post is a great help. Know i know what the general road side Audio guy would do to my car.... The best bet for me would be to go to a showroom with my HU and speakers and have the system fitted in front of me...

Though need one help here... What speakers would be best for the Getz. Front and rear.. For the rear is fitting the speakers on the door panel is better or on the parcel tray.

Would really appreciate if you can help in deciding a size and specification for the speakers that i should go for. since i dont understand much of the techno bable can u direct me to some articles online which can make things clear. Do you know someone in Mumbai who is a meticulus as you.

Warm Regards
GetzUThere.
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Old 19th December 2005, 15:47   #116
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Hi Gunbir,

One more addition. I only want to go for the HU and 4 speakers. no amps, subwoofer... What kind of cables do i need to get to get the max out of my speakers.

GetzUThere.
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Old 19th December 2005, 17:16   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetzUThere
Hi Gunbir,

One more addition. I only want to go for the HU and 4 speakers. no amps, subwoofer... What kind of cables do i need to get to get the max out of my speakers.

GetzUThere.
I'd use Belden speaker cable and good 8 SWG for the power of the HU.
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Old 19th December 2005, 17:22   #118
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well......i am not gunbir but i can say on his behalf that door can take 6.5".[he told me so]For speaker brands,there is plenty of choice.Just depends on ur budget.


Quote:
I'd use Belden speaker cable and good 8 SWG for the power of the HU.
navin,is it a exclusive brand for speakers wires or is it a multi-purpose wire that can be used as spk wire? I cant get it from Batala.Any idea about price???

Last edited by rsjaurr : 19th December 2005 at 17:26.
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Old 20th December 2005, 01:45   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetzUThere
Though need one help here... What speakers would be best for the Getz. Front and rear.. For the rear is fitting the speakers on the door panel is better or on the parcel tray.
Hi GetzUThere

Congratulations on your new Getz. We (me and others on this forum) can suggest you many combinations but you have to give us a budget, music tastes, listening preferences (sound quality / give your neighbours cat a heart attack etc).

Well Jb and I advise against parcel shelf install in cases where:
a. You can have a front soundstage based system.*
b. You already have stock locations in rear doors.**
c. The car is primarily owner driven.

* A 'front soundstage'... well think about it.. Most theaters, auditoriums, stadia etc are designed to deliver majority of sound from the front. This is because God intended for you to listen to sounds primarily from the front. Your ears are shaped accordingly. When you are facing the sound source, your brain can reconstruct the soundstage, pinpoint where the guitarist is, where the drummer is and where the lead vocalist is.. etc. This is called a front sounstage. Contrary to earlier car audio concepts, where majority of power and sound was placed in the rear parcel shelf... things have moved upfront and this is the way it is meant to be. So nowadays a well designed system will have a nice component set in the front, a decent coaxial speaker pair in the rear and a sub in the boot.

** Rear door stock locations... Well if in the above example you used the component speakers up front with the midbass speakers in the stock locations near your feet, the tweeters up on your dash. Now consider coaxial speakers in the rear door, also near the rear passengers feet. We have better results with this because even at loud levels, the sound is mostly contained in the rear section and does not foul too much with your front soundstage. Remember, the rear speakers are only meant to be supporting the front and are thus called 'rear fills'. They should typically be given only enough power so you (sitting in the front) cannot tell if they are or arent playing. If they are so loud that you can tell they are playing, then they are too loud. Rear shelf isnt a good idea in this system cuz the rears are installed at ear level and will be firing into the rear windshield, thus sending a whole lot of indirect sound your way, which may be percieved louder than your fronts and will foul with your front soundstage. Of course if you set this up properly (use the fader) then the rear shelf could work too... just dont use the original tray. Keep this one at home and get another one fabricated out of mdf / marine ply.

If not using an amp, the cables provided by the speaker manufacturer will do fine. If using an amp, better cables are advised.
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Old 20th December 2005, 06:52   #120
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belden is a VFM brand IMHO. I use some home made cable using belden wire but i dont expect everyone to take that much trouble.
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