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Old 20th March 2010, 11:37   #1
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Default Ice Tuning and hardware query in santro.

Hi guys,

I have the following setup in my santro –
  • HU - Kenwood 6539
  • Amp - Jbl A604 amp 640 watts (in the boot )
  • Sub - Jbl gt5 s12 woofer 1200 watts (in sealed 0.8 cuft enclosure)
  • Rear - Mtx xt693 6x9 (on wooden tray)
  • Front - Earthquake vtek62 6.5” 2 way 500 watts (In door)
  • Rca Cables – Pair of Scosche Rca
  • Power cable – 2 x 8 gauge boss power cables.
Hu has 50W x 4 (MOSFET Power IC) - 2.5V 3 Pre-outs
Amp powers the 6.5 2 way in front.
Hu powers the mtx 6x9.
Sub in bridged on amp rear channel

Amp setting –
Pic attached.

Now, my query!
I am looking to add a pair of tweeters in front. (Able to source, only non crossover tweeters, in my budget.)
There are no channels empty on the amp, so some installer suggested, connecting the non crossover tweeters directly to the HU front speaker channel.

Is this the correct method? How would I control the tweeter brightness?
Would I be able to set the HU front speaker LPF to protect the tweeters from the bass low frequency and also be able to not affect the front pre-out to the amp and reduce the bass on the 6.5?
Bass and midrange from the front 6.5” is required.
At the same time I don’t want to fry the tweeter with low frequency.

Is this possible on the HU (kenwood 6539) to control both theses separately?

To understand the HU - Kenwood Corporation | Car Electroics | 1DIN Receivers | KDC-MP6539U

I know my question maybe stupid but my understanding of HU LPF, HPF is limited and how a HU controls theses in the front speaker channel differently from the pre-out RCA is also limited.


All members, all comments welcome.


PS: I am getting Soundstream tweeters (no crossovers) for Rs.1400. Is the cost and brand right? I am still to listen to them. My preference is for not too bright vocal. Any other brand suggestions ?

For pic of the ICE please take a look at my garage.

UM
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Ice Tuning and hardware query in santro.-87396d1231485714gt0937vsgt5963gt5a604.jpg  


Last edited by UniqueMods : 20th March 2010 at 11:41.
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Old 21st March 2010, 02:16   #2
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Harakiri!

@UniqueMods, what you want to do was insensibly fashionable some 15-20 years back. Just the way some people like to cruise around with windows rolled down and subwoofer set to full blast going boooommmm booooommmm. In those days the fashion was to mount Pioneer TS20 tweeters near the junction of A-pillar and roof, roll the windows down, and slowly drive around with chilla-chilla sound emanating from the car. The objective in either case is making people look at them.

Have you ever asked yourself why ARE you trying to put tweeters? Not enough high frequency definition? If you don't think about the actual reason, you will do something seriously cacophonic.

Yes, the tweeter can be mounted directly in parallel with your coaxes. But, it is preferred that they are connected with bipolar capacitors in series with the tweeter, so that only high frequencies are sent to it. Don't worry, the capacitors will cost you perhaps Rs. 50 or less. Use an online XO designer to calculate the value of the capacitor. Use 4Khz as the cross-over point, i.e. nothing below 4KHz should go to the tweeter. Or maybe someone here can calculate and give us the value of the capacitor.
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Old 21st March 2010, 03:11   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Harakiri!

@UniqueMods, what you want to do was insensibly fashionable some 15-20 years back. Just the way some people like to cruise around with windows rolled down and subwoofer set to full blast going boooommmm booooommmm. In those days the fashion was to mount Pioneer TS20 tweeters near the junction of A-pillar and roof, roll the windows down, and slowly drive around with chilla-chilla sound emanating from the car. The objective in either case is making people look at them.

Have you ever asked yourself why ARE you trying to put tweeters? Not enough high frequency definition? If you don't think about the actual reason, you will do something seriously cacophonic.

Yes, the tweeter can be mounted directly in parallel with your coaxes. But, it is preferred that they are connected with bipolar capacitors in series with the tweeter, so that only high frequencies are sent to it. Don't worry, the capacitors will cost you perhaps Rs. 50 or less. Use an online XO designer to calculate the value of the capacitor. Use 4Khz as the cross-over point, i.e. nothing below 4KHz should go to the tweeter. Or maybe someone here can calculate and give us the value of the capacitor.
what gave you this impression ?

i think you got the wrong idea of the whole thing. my normal sound level is just enough for me. Even a person standing next to the car at a signal won’t know there is any music playing. iam not into any bling show.

At the moment, iam getting feeling all the vocals are coming from the rear only, therefore i would like add tweeters.

Your idea of the capacitor is nice and will use that, but which tweeter? is soundstream any good for 1400Rs. i need clean vocals at a low volume. not too bright.

Also "tweeter can be mounted directly in parallel with your coaxes" meaning? i want to add the tweeters on the hu front speaker out. not through the amp.

My main question was, will I be able to control the lpf to the tweeter connected to the HU front speaker out, without affecting the front RCA LPF to the amp.


Edited - how did you get a the worng idea of my ICE being only for Booooommm Booommm. coz thas really not the case. Are my rear channel gain and Htz setting wrong in the amp pic ? the sub setting on the HU are always at 0.

UM

Last edited by UniqueMods : 21st March 2010 at 03:19.
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Old 21st March 2010, 08:13   #4
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Series and parallel circuits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :P
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Old 21st March 2010, 16:51   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniqueMods View Post
what gave you this impression ? ...
Arey @UniqueMods-bhai, aap to offend ho gaye! Sorry, no, I didn't mean to ridicule your idea, just that I remembered the old fashion of mounting tweeters. And no, I did not mean your system goes boooommm!

By "directly in parallel" I meant just that - the tweeter wires (one directly from the tweeter, the other from the capacitor connected to the other wire) can be connected to the HU speaker out.

No, you can't set LPF (you can't, you need HPF for the tweeter) separately for the signal to the amp and to the tweeter. The HU LPF/HPF setting is applied at source, so any change is equally valid for RCA pre-out as well as speaker out.

Quite obviously your system is not tuned well, and that is why it sounds rear-heavy - the sub and 6x9 together overpower the front. Adding a tweeter in this situation is not going to make only a limited difference, and even that is doubtful for vocals. Any mismatched tweeter will make your system brighter. For getting better sound in front, you just have to replace those coaxes with components.

An alternative is to Fade to front in the HU, so that the rear coaxes don't overpower the front vocals.
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Old 21st March 2010, 18:59   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniqueMods View Post
At the moment, iam getting feeling all the vocals are coming from the rear only, therefore i would like add tweeters.
That's odd. Are you sure the fronts are run off the amp and not the 6x9s? In any case, your best bet is to get a good pair of comps for the front.
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Old 21st March 2010, 23:56   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post

Yes, the tweeter can be mounted directly in parallel with your coaxes. But, it is preferred that they are connected with bipolar capacitors in series with the tweeter, so that only high frequencies are sent to it. Don't worry, the capacitors will cost you perhaps Rs. 50 or less. Use an online XO designer to calculate the value of the capacitor. Use 4Khz as the cross-over point, i.e. nothing below 4KHz should go to the tweeter. Or maybe someone here can calculate and give us the value of the capacitor.
Thanks DerAlte, B&T. some more help required.

Can someone help me with the above quote. i really dont want to spend 6k on component speakers.

PS - B&T - I am sure the front 6.5" are connected to the amp and rear 6x9 are on the HU. My fader is also set for F5 on the HU. will get the tuning redone from FM Drive, who has done the installation .

UM

Last edited by UniqueMods : 21st March 2010 at 23:57.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 14:36   #8
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I did some reading and understanding of bipolar capacitor and tweeter operating Hz.
the Soundstream tweeters I am planing to fit have Freq. Resp.of 2KHZ to 21KHZ

I found this site useful - Basic Crossover Calculators and Impedance stabilization circuit calculator.

as per the site calculator - data entered in bold.
First Order (6db/octave) Two-Way Crossover
High Pass Impedance: 4 Ohms
Low Pass Impedance: 4 Ohms
Frequency 2000 Hz

answer comes to 19.875 uf. to play it safe iam thinking of fitting a 15uf bipolar capacitor in series.

Gurus, please confirm the 15uf is OK.

Last edited by UniqueMods : 22nd March 2010 at 14:37.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 16:49   #9
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Yup 20uf is about right. But why are you crossing over 1st order. few tweeters can handle much power with such a shallow slope.

What is the Fs of the tweeter?
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Old 22nd March 2010, 17:03   #10
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Yup 20uf is about right. But why are you crossing over 1st order. few tweeters can handle much power with such a shallow slope.

What is the Fs of the tweeter?
Sorry, but your question is in Greek for me.

the Soundstream speaker i was referring to is the TWS.3
1" PEI dome tweeter
Tri-Mounting - flush, surface or surface angle
Adjustable eyeball design
12 dB In-Line Crossover Network
Rated Input Power: 110W
Impedance: 4ohm
Freq. Resp. 2KHZ-21KHZ
SPL 94dB

1. could you please go through the whole thread and give me some other solution.

2. Also would the attach pic,2nd order setting be better?

UM
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Last edited by UniqueMods : 22nd March 2010 at 17:11.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 17:12   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniqueMods View Post
12 dB In-Line Crossover Network
a 12db crossover is a 2nd order crossover. Today many 2nd order crossovers are not Butterworth but Linkwitz Riley.

I would use the crossover that came with the speaker, unless you have measurement tools and some understanding of woofers and tweeters rolling your own crossovers is fraught with risk.

1. why do you want to add these tweeters?
2. you have only one amp I assume this amp is being used to power the sub and the front components. In which case 2 channels of the amp must be bridged and LPFed at say 100Hz (see that LP/HP/Flat switch - set that to LP for 2 channels that feed the sub). The other 2 channels can be used stereo mode but HPFed at say 80Hz. These stereo channels will feed the front speakers. Do not add your tweeters yet. First get your basic system right and you might find you do NOT need them tweeters after all.

Last edited by navin : 22nd March 2010 at 17:19.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 17:30   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Do not add your tweeters yet. First get your basic system right and you might find you do NOT need them tweeters after all.
Ok. Will have the entire tuning redone first. Then will see if anything is required.

Thanks all for your help and guidance. Even i got to learn some basic about LPF HPF and hz.

UM
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Old 23rd March 2010, 11:15   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniqueMods View Post
Even i got to learn some basic about LPF HPF and hz.
The terms are self explanatory.
LPF - Low Pass Filter - it passes the Low frequencies and stops the highs
HPF - the reverse of the above.
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