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Old 2nd September 2010, 20:35   #46
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Yes i would try that for sure. And i think i will use two channels from the Amp to run both Woofers and use the other two channels to feed both pairs of Mids and Tweeters via the crossovers.

The Access 165 A3 kit spec lists as 80W nominal input for one side. But when you look at the individual spec sheet of Woofer, Tweeter and Midrange it is listed as 80W, 80W and 15W respectively. Why so?

Woofer
accessa3-2.pdf

Midrange
accessa3-3.pdf

Tweeter
accessa3-4.pdf
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Old 2nd September 2010, 20:58   #47
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Appreciate the effort in doing it alone on a new car without prior experience. Hope you do get the rest too fixed soon. Awaiting audition.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 07:27   #48
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Jk, i'll come to your place tomorrow. Got to install other stuff, may do it on Sunday, got to get the car serviced too tomorrow.


Gurus, any idea why the individual drivers have a total nominal input rating of 175watts but the kit as a whole is rated at 80W nominal input?
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Old 3rd September 2010, 08:02   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Jk, i'll come to your place tomorrow. Got to install other stuff, may do it on Sunday, got to get the car serviced too tomorrow.


Gurus, any idea why the individual drivers have a total nominal input rating of 175watts but the kit as a whole is rated at 80W nominal input?

I think its because of the limitations with your crossover. Crossovers too have power handling capacity and impedances to match with speakers.
So you cannot basically connect a 4 ohm crossover to a 2 ohm speaker. Similarly, if your power handling of crossover is only 80w rms, then even though you have connected 200w rms speakers to it, they cant be utilized to fullest extent.

Incase you are planning to go active, you can power individual components close to their rated power itself.

All said, i think you can still power the components at 100-130 w rms provided you've got your gains right.

Last edited by Mi10 : 3rd September 2010 at 08:07.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 10:07   #50
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Mi10, thanks for clearing that :-) I didn't know Xover had power rating too. I'm not going active, my HU doesn't support that, i'm going to run the woofer from the amp directly. This way i'll be able to provide 100W RMS for the Woofer and 100W RMS for the Mid/tweeter pair via HU. I think i shoudn't worry about frying them by supplying more than rated power if i don't listen at very high volume(?).

After going 3 ways i don't feel the need for a rear fill at all, so am unnecessarily using two channels of the amp to power rear co-ax in the rear doors. If i need rear fill i'll use the HU to power them, anyway i'm gonna remove the co-ax and replace it with the Auditor midbass driver which i removed from the front.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 11:18   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
... individual spec sheet of Woofer, Tweeter and Midrange it is listed as 80W, 80W and 15W respectively. Why so? ...
It is the highest of the 3, usually the woofer. The speakers, being passive components, will draw only as much power as the conditions demand corresponding to the voltage at the amp speaker terminals. The power rating is 'nominal' - safe zone. The speaker *may* handle much more for short durations (Max power) if the conditions are OK, till heat accumulation makes the speaker go up in smoke.

Here power cannot be simply reckoned with as P=VI or P=R*I^2 (DC power), where P is watts, V is voltage at amp output, I is current and R is speaker resistance. Equivalent power that flows due to low frequency range (music content) is higher than the mid, and much much higher than high frequency range.

The wire size in inductors used in XO are always selected to handle much higher current than normally expected (more than corresponding to the Max Power of the speakers).
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Old 3rd September 2010, 12:13   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
It is the highest of the 3,

speaker *may* handle much more for short durations (Max power) if the conditions are OK, till heat accumulation makes the speaker go up in smoke.
The rating of a system is based on the wattage at which the most fragile (usually the tweeter) component will fail given it's expected input (in the case music).

For example if you have a woofer, mid and tweeter XOed at say 200hz and 4kHz. THe musical energy spectrum dictaes that ABOUT 40% of the energy will be below 200hz, 50% between 200 and 4kHz, and 10% above 4kHz. (Modern electronic music like Trance, Hi-Hop etc.. was not considered when these %s were set).

So if your amp puts out 100W you woofer would get 40W, the mdiabss would get 50W and the tweeter would get 10W. If the tweeter was set to fail at say 8W instead of 10W the system would be rated at 80W so that not more than 8W is fed to the tweeter.

Modern Electronic music tends to have much more energy below 100hz and above 5khz than Bach, Beatles, Brubeck or BB King. So using speakers with Hip-Hop, Trance, House etc.. puts a lot more strain on the woofer and tweeter. The woofer voice coils are bigger and their suspesion can take a harder beating, hence it is more common to see tweeters fail. I did some rudimetnary measurements using House and Trance and found that for stuff like DJ Trieste (Greece Olympics) and some English guy called Paul Oakenfold. HF energy (above 3kHz) was over 20%! vs 12-14% for Deep Purple, Aerosmith and AC/DC and 6-8% for Bach and Beethoven, 11-12% for Miles Davis and Chopin.

So if you are into Armin Van Buren and Paul Van Dyk I'd derate the wattage specs by say 50%.

That said it is usually PHYSICAL EXCURSION that kiils speakers not Thermal wattage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
All said, i think you can still power the components at 100-130 w rms provided you've got your gains right.
A bit more power on tap will ensure the amps do not clip and produce a lot of HF energy and hence is safer for the most fragile part of your speaker system (the tweeter).
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Old 3rd September 2010, 13:25   #53
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DerAlte & Navin thanks for detailed explanation. It helped me understand a lot more, it did help
I seldom listen to Trance/Electronic, most of my musical hours in the car is filled with Deep Purple, ACDC, Def Leppard, VanHalen, Beethoven then some Pop and regional hits.
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Old 5th September 2010, 19:05   #54
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Redamped 4 doors with Dynamat extreme. Exisitn noise kill was salvaged (not completely), and salvaged pieces were stuck on the outer skin of the door. Inner panel was then completely sealed with Dynamat. Door card was also damped at few places. End result is a very very solid (and heavy) door and it sounds really good compared to the earlier partial damping.

Dynamat extreme is thicker compared to noise kill and the aluminium layer doesn't tear easily. But you got to be careful when cutting, applying and pressing this with your hands because the aluminium layer will easily cut your fingers, while some cuts will be large and blood oozing out, you wouldn't know about minor cuts until you wash your hands

Sorry no pics, even though my dear friend Sameer helped me out with this we couldn't take any pics because our hands were messy with rubbery remnants. It was a messy affair, mostly because we had to peel off the exisitng noise kill damping. Washing this off is also difficult but coconut helps

Re-wiring was not done since it was getting late.

How is Infinity Kappa 120.9W sub? I'm thinking of replacing the GT4-12 in the sealed box with Kappa set at 2ohms as can give upto 360W pushing a 2ohm load amd sub is rated at 350W.

Can i use the Kappa sub in the same enclosure meant for GT4-12 (CS1204B)? The enclosure requirement of the Kappa (as mentioned in several sites) match the present sealed box.

Last edited by navin : 15th September 2010 at 10:28. Reason: back to back posts.
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Old 18th September 2010, 15:58   #55
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When i moved to Focal from Auditor, i removed the Auditor tweeters which were placed in the door card. Plan was to shut the hole with some cool sticker or something. Since sticker thing didn't happen yet i decided to place the tweeters back in the door card. So anyone who's gonna sit in the car is gonna get worried with 4 tweeters in the front. Its not connected, obviously

As i had to get the door card off i thought i'll click and post some pics of the DIY damping i did with the help of my friend. Its not as neat as i'd want it to be but had to be content with what i could do without breaking my back.

ICE'd A STAR-p9180108.jpg

ICE'd A STAR-p9180110.jpg

ICE'd A STAR-p9180116.jpg

ICE'd A STAR-p9180103.jpg

ICE'd A STAR-p9180101.jpg

ICE'd A STAR-p9180105.jpg

ICE'd A STAR-p9180109.jpg
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Old 18th September 2010, 19:23   #56
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Great.

Wont the filter hit one's leg when entering/exiting the car? Couldn't you have put it inside the door?
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Old 18th September 2010, 19:49   #57
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Great.

Wont the filter hit one's leg when entering/exiting the car? Couldn't you have put it inside the door?
No it doesn't touch unless the person is 6feet plus. In that case i tell them to watch out for it.

I didn't want to place them inside the door since the space there is very limited. Main reason was i wanted to mount the XO in a stable location since the inductors are heavy and don't want the constant slamming of the doors (by others) to shake things in the XO. As you know i had a small issue with the XO before. If it were mounted inside the door i'd have to pull in one pair of 16ga speaker wire to feed the XO and pull out two pairs of 16Ga speaker wire to feed the tweeter in the APillar and midrange in the dash, the kicker wires are pretty thick so routing 3 pairs through the rubber sleeve would be a pain. I wanted to put them next to the amps, but didn't have enough wire then.

Btw i'm considering bridging the amp and giving 200W to each side? Should i? Will it give better SQ? Will it be safe if i don't listen at high volumes?

I'm thinking about this because the rear channels from the amp is getting wasted powering the rear fills. I have faded out the rear fill and find nothing lacking without it. Instead of using the rear channels of the amp i'll use HU power to power the rear fills.

I have put the midbass of the Auditor RIP165S in the rear doors replacing the Auditor co-ax. I gave the co-ax to my cousin to fit it in his M800.

Last edited by Sankar : 18th September 2010 at 20:03.
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Old 29th September 2010, 10:51   #58
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Over the past few days did some experimentation with the front stage. Final setup is an active passive configuration, where the front woofer is run active and band passed off a separate channel off the amp and the midrange + tweeter is run via the passive crossover off another channel. Each front side is now getting 200WRMS, 100W for the woofer and 100W for the mid+tweet combo. The setup sounds a lot better and cleaner now.

Previously I tried using the rear out to power the woofer thinking rear and front channels should carry the same signal if TA and other stuff is off. But that was not the case. Now using Y splitter on the front out to populate 4 channels of the amp.

Now this is gonna allow me to experiment with different woofers up front if needed.. hehehe


Now rear speakers (midbasses only) are not hooked up. I can use HU power to use them if needed, got to experiment with rear-fill on and off.

Last edited by Sankar : 29th September 2010 at 10:52.
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Old 29th September 2010, 12:03   #59
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Good going bro, i always liked the Active setup more than the passive ones. So your Quasi active 3 way should be miles better than fully passive setup.

Curious to know, so whats the crossover frequency between the midrange and Tweeter ? Are you using all Xover settings from your Amp (even for LPFing the Midbasses) ?
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Old 29th September 2010, 12:40   #60
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Midrange and the tweeter is still fed via the passive crossover and their split up frequency is not known.

Its the woofer which i have separated from the passive crossover and set active. The crossover split up frequency between the woofer and the midrange+tweeter is 300Hz (Thanks Greenie).

So what i've done is set the HPF on the HU at 50Hz --> Y Splitter --->Amplifier--->
CH 1&2---> HPF at around 280Hz--->Passive XO--->Midrange & tweeter
CH 3&4---> LPF at around 400Hz ---> Woofer
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