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Old 17th May 2010, 04:02   #1
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Default My ICE Story - Getz CRDi - Suggestions please!

Hi all! I have been bitten a while ago by the ICE bug, and have been following the Gurus suggestions and post in the ICE section. My ride is a Getz CRDi, and I currently have the following setup:

Headunit - Premier FH-P800BT
Front: Illusion Audio EL6.1 (75W RMS)
Rear: Lightning Audio S4.65.3 (6.5" 3 way coaxials, 50W RMS, installed on the door)
Subwoofer: Hertz Dieci DS300 12" 150 RMS, ported custom enclosure
Amplifier - Crunch P1400.4 (87.5W RMS @ 4 ohms)

The front channel of the amp drives all the four speakers. The rear channel of the amp is bridged (delivers 350W @ 4ohms when bridged) for the subwoofer.

I like my music warm, with good mids and tight bass. This install was on an extreme budget.

My first grouse was that the Lightening Audio coaxials in the rear were overshadowing the EL6.1 components - I barely hear the ELs! And there was nothing I could do (in terms of fader) as both the front and rear are run from the front channel of the amp.

So that made me take the first upgrade step - a monoblock. I looked around and bought an Alpine PDX 1.600 (600W RMS @ 2 & 4 ohms) - this is yet to reach me. Any suggestions on where to install this? The 4 channel is under the front co-driver's seat.

In the meantime, a "brainwave" hit me, and I decided to disconnect the rear coaxials from the AMP, giving all its power to the EL6.1. This proved to me a mistake - I managed to put the amp into protect mode. After turning off and back on, all was fine - the rear speakers were disconnected, the amp was driving the EL6.1 through the front channel and the rear is bridged for the sub - until I started the car. I am now getting all sorts of whines and noises.

I ran the amp through an alternate source and it was all fine. The noise is originating from the HU, and I'm afraid I blew the pico fuses in it. I haven't fixed it yet - advisable to ground the RCA like posted in this thread, or should I send the HU to Pioneer USA (where I got it from)? That is going to be one clumsy repair, sending it to the US and getting it back - would be months without a HU that way

Back to my ICE upgrades. After putting in the new monoblock, I plan to upgrade to a more powerful Sub - again on a budget. Like I said, I want my bass to be clean and tight. I also would like to have the sub take as little real estate from my hatch's boot (now I have to remove it for even a check-in sized luggage!). Would an 8" / 10" do? And which ones - keeping in mind that it is going to be driven by a 600W monoblock? My budget is ~7.5k (yeah I know what you thinkin' - "you gonna end up spending twice that..." ).

After the mono and the sub, I am going to focus on the 4 channel - I am planning to get an Infinity Kappa Four (or CA470, which, I think is pretty hard to come across). The Kappa Four is a Class D - should I got for it, or look for a Class AB Amp?

The rear coaxials come in the line next - what non-bright-sounding, powerful yet inexpensive coaxials are out there? The car usually will have only two seated (mostly me - the driver - alone), and having people in the back is pretty uncommon. But I still would like to have some fills there...

The next step - the components. I would like to upgrade the EL6.1s to something more powerful on the mids. Don't get me wrong, I am satisfied with the ELs for now, but this is a distant to-do. Suggestions here too are welcome.

Finally, I have not damped my car yet. While I don't get to hear any rattles even at volumes that test my tolerance, I would like to damp the firewall, the floor, the front doors and the boot. This is to mainly keep engine noises and road / tire noises away. I would eventually want to damp the back doors and roof too. How much am a looking at as a spend here? And is this approach fine?

All suggestions and advices are welcome. And a mention of how much damage I can expect to the wallet for your suggestions would be an added help too!

Last edited by ph03n!x : 17th May 2010 at 04:15.
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Old 17th May 2010, 09:56   #2
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You must have gone wrong somewhere when you were connecting and disconnecting. Even though what you have described is rather benign, you must have done something more than you have noticed.

"I'm afraid I blew the pico fuses in it": what makes you think that there are pico fuses and you have blown them?
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Old 17th May 2010, 10:19   #3
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Firstly, someone experienced has to hear your setup in person to diagnose the problem, I think you should ask Mahendra (Nitrous) for some assistance.

Grounding the player's RC output along with the RC cable might help.

Worst case scenario if the player has developed a problem, it can be fixed in India itself, you don't have to ship it to USA. Pioneers are quite serviceable.
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Old 17th May 2010, 14:21   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
You must have gone wrong somewhere when you were connecting and disconnecting. Even though what you have described is rather benign, you must have done something more than you have noticed.

"I'm afraid I blew the pico fuses in it": what makes you think that there are pico fuses and you have blown them?
When disconnecting the speaker wires from the Amp, the screwdriver touched the body of the amp. The amp was on, I was figuring out which one of the wires is for the rear channel. (I know... ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueraven316 View Post
Firstly, someone experienced has to hear your setup in person to diagnose the problem, I think you should ask Mahendra (Nitrous) for some assistance.

Grounding the player's RC output along with the RC cable might help.

Worst case scenario if the player has developed a problem, it can be fixed in India itself, you don't have to ship it to USA. Pioneers are quite serviceable.
Nitrous is the one who pointed me to the pico fuse problem, and the description seems to fit to the problem.

@ Satya, I am headed your way this month-end / beginning of next month during a weekend - will call you after the mono reaches me

Satya / DerAlte / All - Any comments on the rest of the story?!!

Last edited by ph03n!x : 17th May 2010 at 14:23.
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Old 20th May 2010, 06:41   #5
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Default ICE-fection!

It could mean ICE+infection or ICE+affection - I leave you to judge. Here is what this in/af-fection is doing to me.

The Alpine PDX 1.600 is yet to reach my hands, but I began my search for a matching subwoofer, not wanting to fry my 150wrms hertz dieci. After searching, consulting, re-searching, budgeting, overshooting budgets et all, I have locked in on the 2009 version of Rockford Fosgate T1 12 D4. This DVC 4 ohms sub is rated at 600W RMS at 4 ohms, perfectly matching my AMP. I am not sure when this sub is going to reach me though :(

Now that I am changing the Amp and sub (which involves a wait), I am not going to change anything in the current setup (except maybe fix the noise!). Will also pool funds until the sub reaches me, enough for the Infinity Kappa Four, as well as for a pair of components (not decided), and then re-do the whole setup (thinking of a DIY ).

This is what I am imagining my system to be like a few months down the lane:

HU - Premier FH-P800BT (Unchanged)
Front Components - ??? (Suggestions please!)
Rear coaxials - ??? (On door - do I even need them? Will the 50W RMS Lightening Audio suffice for filling in for the sake of it?)
4 Channel - Infinity Kappa Four
Mono - Alpine PDX 1.600
Sub - Rockford Fosgate T1 12 D4

I like my music warm with powerful mids - what components would suit in the under 10k category? I can also look at getting something from the US (hence 10k need not be INR, but about USD 200 ~ 250)

(Ah! There goes my components budget from INR 10k to USD 250 in the same post!!!)
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Old 20th May 2010, 10:53   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
HU - Premier FH-P800BT (Unchanged)
Front Components - ??? (Suggestions please!)
Rear coaxials - ??? (On door - do I even need them? Will the 50W RMS Lightening Audio suffice for filling in for the sake of it?)
4 Channel - Infinity Kappa Four
Mono - Alpine PDX 1.600
Sub - Rockford Fosgate T1 12 D4
Please remember that the thermal ratings of subwoofers is not the limiting factor for subwoofes. Subs are more limited by their suspension. Look for this.
Xmax (linear one way) 7mm or higher - If they give you peak to peak Xmax divide that number by 4 to get linear one way Xmax.
BL/Mms ratio of 120 (Tm/kg) or higher
Le of 1mH (at 1kHz) or lower
Sensitivity of 87db/1W/1m or higher
etc...

For the front 6" components I'd consider the Alpine SPX, DLS Ultimate, Focal Utopia, JL audio C3/C5 series and Rainbow CS series . These will be a significant step up from the Illusion Carbons.

Last edited by navin : 20th May 2010 at 11:01.
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Old 20th May 2010, 12:26   #7
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Love it when people get confused and money is ready to be blown away

IMHO, you need to get your car damped first; its not just about rattling. A good work will make your door a good enclosure.

@ navin; he can also look at Infinity Ref?
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Old 20th May 2010, 16:28   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
Love it when people get confused and money is ready to be blown away

IMHO, you need to get your car damped first; its not just about rattling. A good work will make your door a good enclosure.

@ navin; he can also look at Infinity Ref?
Infinity Ref maybe not, Kappa xx.9 might be a step up.
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Old 20th May 2010, 17:14   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Please remember that the thermal ratings of subwoofers is not the limiting factor for subwoofes. Subs are more limited by their suspension. Look for this.
Xmax (linear one way) 7mm or higher - If they give you peak to peak Xmax divide that number by 4 to get linear one way Xmax.
BL/Mms ratio of 120 (Tm/kg) or higher
Le of 1mH (at 1kHz) or lower
Sensitivity of 87db/1W/1m or higher
etc...
Thanks Navin-ji! Here are the values for the T1 12 D4:
LINEAR EXCURSION (X-MAX) = 14mm
SENSITIVITY (SPL) W/M = 86 db
VOICE COIL INDUCTANCE (Le) = 4.2 mH
FORCE FACTOR (BL) = 20.5 T-m
MOVING MASS (Mms) = 7.34 oz (208.1 g)
BL / Mms = 98.51 Tm / Kg

So this sub is not good? I will look up a few other subs and calculate these parameters. Any pointers here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
For the front 6" components I'd consider the Alpine SPX, DLS Ultimate, Focal Utopia, JL audio C3/C5 series and Rainbow CS series . These will be a significant step up from the Illusion Carbons.
Am on Electra EL6.1 (though I like to think am running Illusion Carbons!!), and Alpine SPX 17 Reference fall in my budget. The rest are added in my list for the next step-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
Love it when people get confused and money is ready to be blown away

IMHO, you need to get your car damped first; its not just about rattling. A good work will make your door a good enclosure.

@ navin; he can also look at Infinity Ref?
Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Infinity Ref maybe not, Kappa xx.9 might be a step up.
Thanks JKDas. I checked out the Kappa 60.9 (90W RMS) and the Kappa Perfect (100W RMS). The main difference I noticed in a glance was their frequency response.

60.9 = 45Hz - 35 kHz
Perfect = 75Hz - 23kHz

Isn't the 60.9 better? Wonder why the Perfect is priced a notch higher if that is the case.

I will definitely be damping, but not immediately. I am going to patiently buy all these upgrades, and then damp the car and install the upgrades - good plan? (Don't want to keep removing and refitting the door panels, etc - a bad first-install here in Chennai has left it bruised).

Last edited by ph03n!x : 20th May 2010 at 17:24.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:01   #10
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Default Class D vs Class AB?

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The Kappa Four is a Class D - should I got for it, or look for a Class AB Amp?
During a wonderful audition of Sathee46's Fiesta and a chat with him, we again hit on the Kappa Four being Class D. There are also Alpine multichannel Class D Amps out there. I am confused, as I remember reading this a while back where @navin had said Class D full range amps fall short of traditional Class A / AB amps.

I am confused as ever, can some one drop in a word? @navinji, has things improved out there? Not that I am an audiophile, but I can still make out if a track is compressed or uncompressed - and after spending enough time in this section, I do not want to wake up an audiophile and end up changing all my ICE gear
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Old 31st May 2010, 21:27   #11
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Hope I am not hijacking

Can someone describe the difference between Ref6030cs and Kappa60.9; and their price here in India ( with and without bill )
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Old 31st May 2010, 23:36   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
VOICE COIL INDUCTANCE (Le) = 4.2 mH
MOVING MASS (Mms) = 7.34 oz (208.1 g)
BL / Mms = 98.51 Tm / Kg

So this sub is not good? I will look up a few other subs and calculate these parameters. Any pointers here?

60.9 = 45Hz - 35 kHz
Perfect = 75Hz - 23kHz

Isn't the 60.9 better? Wonder why the Perfect is priced a notch higher if that is the case.
The Le seems awful high but given that you have a MMs of 200gms you need to getnerate some force to move this. If you compare this sub to another having the same specs except say a Le of 1mh, Mms of about 50gms and BL of say 15-20 you would call your sub a MACK truck while the other is a Ferrari like these 2.

B&C SPEAKERS
12ND930 - LF Neodymium Driver
page produit PHL

neither of these woofers can go as low as the woofer you have listed but the bass they have is quick.

as far as the Infinity Perfect is concerned do not read incompelte specs. The frequecy response does not state if the response if +/3db or +/-10db and what were the measurement conditions (room, baffle, box, etc...).
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Old 1st June 2010, 04:46   #13
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Thanks navinji. I am trying to audition a Kappa Perfect, am partly made up to go for it.

Any word on the Class AB vs Class D for full range?
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:02   #14
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1. That links back to this page.
2. I read every thread in the ICE section if I do not answer it is one of 3 things
a. Someone else has already offered an answer that is better than mine (there are plenty of knowledgeable BHPIans - some who are pros - on TBHP today).
b. I do not have enough knowledge to make a sensible answer (models recomendations, etc..)
c. I have little interest in the subject (Carputers for example)
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Old 1st June 2010, 13:10   #15
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Hope you didn't take offence - I linked to post #10 in this thread, as I thought you might have missed it and wanted to draw your attention, more so because you had discussed about Class AB vs Class D a while back, so wanted to know your thoughts / opinion if things have gotten any better with Class D fullrange amps. I value your experience and what you say, and I do not get to audition and choose from all that is out there!
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