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Old 17th September 2010, 15:30   #46
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Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
Buddy, my 2 cents;

ICE is a system. Hence upgrade keeping in mind all other components of your system including your Battery and Alternator.

You have a good head unit and speakers. Match the other equipments (Sub and Amp) accordingly.

If you are determined to get the Lrx 5.1 please forget the your sub (kappa or any other) for now. 750 rms @ 4 ohms and 1120 rms @ 2 ohms, thats a lot of power. Dont waste precious power by powering it with 300-500 RMS subs.

P.S: No Offence meant to Kappa / other subs
Ok so what do you suggest then? Go for another amp or install a more powerful sub? The Audison LRx 5.1k is my choice for now. I need suggestions for amps which can compliment my head unit and speakers accordingly.
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Old 17th September 2010, 16:18   #47
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The Audion is a great choice. Go for a more powerful sub. Something in the Morel or JL category.
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Old 17th September 2010, 16:56   #48
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If you are already sold on the Amp, then get a better Sub.

Some SQL options;
- JL W6 / W7
- IDQ
- Illusion Carbon's
- Morel Ultimo SC
- Focal V2's
- Rainbow Vandadium / Profi's
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Old 17th September 2010, 17:41   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
If you are already sold on the Amp, then get a better Sub.

Some SQL options;
- JL W6 / W7
- IDQ
- Illusion Carbon's
- Morel Ultimo SC
- Focal V2's
- Rainbow Vandadium / Profi's
What is the price rage of these subs? Can they be compared to the Infinity Kappa 120.9? I am talking other specs here as mentioned by Invinsible and not only RMS power and price. (for once) :-)

Last edited by Epic : 17th September 2010 at 17:42.
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Old 17th September 2010, 19:16   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mi10 View Post
If you are already sold on the Amp, then get a better Sub.

Some SQL options;
- JL W6 / W7
- IDQ
- Illusion Carbon's
- Morel Ultimo SC
- Focal V2's
- Rainbow Vandadium / Profi's
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epic View Post
What is the price rage of these subs? Can they be compared to the Infinity Kappa 120.9? I am talking other specs here as mentioned by Invinsible and not only RMS power and price. (for once) :-)
Most commonly people first look at is RMS rating or the output it can handle. Sub mentioned by Mi10 are all great sounding subs. What matters is how clean the sub can play. Specs such Le, Mms, Bl, are all vital in my opinion in terms of having a Clean low distortion sub. The other important aspect is Efficiency/sensitivity. For instance a sub with sensitivity of 89db 1w/1m used with 500Rms will be as loud as a sub playing with 1000rms at 86db 1w/1m. That's where sensitivity makes a difference. Apart from this other factor to look at is xmax. Subs with more of xmax will play much cleaner in sealed enclosure at rated output. At times distortion is perceived as output. Many tune their sub to gain as much as output and in order to do that they set their gains slightly higher and conclude that their sub can play and handle louder. Now subs with higher Le and low xmax will have much more distortion with such tune. But a sub with lower le and higher xmax will sound a bit more cleaner compared to it. The other deciding factor is whether you wanna go ported or sealed setup. A sub designed for ported enclosure will have higher Fs and lower Qts compared to subs designed to be played in both sealed or ported which will have lower Fs and slightly higher Qts mainly between .35 to .50

In order to make the best choice it's always good to match the sub and amp or vice versa to the rated power, agreed. However if tuned well there is no doubt the sub will be able to handle more power than the rated output. Which of course means it needs to be in it's ideal tuned enclosure size.
Choosing best sub and amp is just not enough but if the enclosure is wrong
that could hinder the performance. And there are some examples here where after choosing the right enclosure size they have gained in performance. I know some who are using Boston G3 sub rated at 350RMs but running it with Audison 5.1k at 2 ohms. That's coz its the clean power without any distortion which ain't harmful to the sub but a clipped signal will add distortion and is definitely harmful to the sub in longer run.

Subs mentioned by Mi10 are all great. Out of which all the subs can handle 1000Rms as long as they have stronger motor design and the signal sent to it is clean and not clipped.
Among them the only sub I would rate it higher is JL w6 and Morel. Among the list its JL w7 that is rated at 1000rms if we consider rms rating.

I picked up Pioneer P01 similar to P99rs and some highend amps coming up and comps but still will retain the Kappa sub simply coz it has sensitivity of 90db 1w/1m at 2 ohms and better specs which means even with 500Rms it will have the output of a sub that is rated 1000Rms with 87db 1w/1m.

Hope that helps.

Last edited by Invinsible : 17th September 2010 at 19:18.
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Old 18th September 2010, 09:20   #51
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Epic, I have a couple of sub recommendations. I don't think they have ever been mentioned as contenders on TBHP, but you will be gobsmacked if you hear them. They will probably put the ones mentioned above to shame.

Diamond Audio Hex Pro 12
Digital Designs DD1000

Forget about published specs. They are rarely accurate. If possible try to audition all the subs with your own amp and arrive at a decision.

Among the more mainstream brands, my fave is the JL. They have a well earned reputation.

Last edited by Gilead : 18th September 2010 at 09:21.
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Old 18th September 2010, 09:27   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
Epic, I have a couple of sub recommendations. I don't think they have ever been mentioned as contenders on TBHP, but you will be gobsmacked if you hear them. They will probably put the ones mentioned above to shame.

Diamond Audio Hex Pro 12
Digital Designs DD1000

Forget about published specs. They are rarely accurate. If possible try to audition all the subs with your own amp and arrive at a decision.

Among the more mainstream brands, my fave is the JL. They have a well earned reputation.
Gilead DD subs are designed to run in ported enclosure. There response in weak in sealed enclosure. That's where looking at the sub helps.
Where as DA hex pro subs are great classic SQ subs. However they have issues with efficiency. However their response is little shallow in low end.
For that money I would suggest the JL W6 or the Morel.
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:02   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post

I picked up Pioneer P01 similar to P99rs and some highend amps coming up and comps but still will retain the Kappa sub simply coz it has sensitivity of 90db 1w/1m at 2 ohms and better specs which means even with 500Rms it will have the output of a sub that is rated 1000Rms with 87db 1w/1m.

Hope that helps.
The sensitivity is a figure which is measured by different manufacture in differnt ways. I would not consider them as the refernce one till I put them in this calculater...

mh-audio.nl - Home

So after putting them in this for the Infifnty sub it comes to 85.1 db.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1825643-post8.html
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:14   #54
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Ok guys excellent suggestio9ns and feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Most commonly people first look at is RMS rating or the output it can handle. Sub mentioned by Mi10 are all great sounding subs. What matters is how clean the sub can play. Specs such Le, Mms, Bl, are all vital in my opinion in terms of having a Clean low distortion sub. The other important aspect is Efficiency/sensitivity. For instance a sub with sensitivity of 89db 1w/1m used with 500Rms will be as loud as a sub playing with 1000rms at 86db 1w/1m. That's where sensitivity makes a difference. Apart from this other factor to look at is xmax. Subs with more of xmax will play much cleaner in sealed enclosure at rated output. At times distortion is perceived as output. Many tune their sub to gain as much as output and in order to do that they set their gains slightly higher and conclude that their sub can play and handle louder. Now subs with higher Le and low xmax will have much more distortion with such tune. But a sub with lower le and higher xmax will sound a bit more cleaner compared to it. The other deciding factor is whether you wanna go ported or sealed setup. A sub designed for ported enclosure will have higher Fs and lower Qts compared to subs designed to be played in both sealed or ported which will have lower Fs and slightly higher Qts mainly between .35 to .50
Again a superb explanation Invinsible. Now again though, based on the above explanation, how would you compare the Infinity Kappa 120.9 to the JL & Morel subs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
In order to make the best choice it's always good to match the sub and amp or vice versa to the rated power, agreed. However if tuned well there is no doubt the sub will be able to handle more power than the rated output. Which of course means it needs to be in it's ideal tuned enclosure size.
Choosing best sub and amp is just not enough but if the enclosure is wrong
that could hinder the performance. And there are some examples here where after choosing the right enclosure size they have gained in performance. I know some who are using Boston G3 sub rated at 350RMs but running it with Audison 5.1k at 2 ohms. That's coz its the clean power without any distortion which ain't harmful to the sub but a clipped signal will add distortion and is definitely harmful to the sub in longer run.
Again based on you explanation above, taking the specs of the Audison LRx 5.1k and the Infinity Kappa 120.9, is it recommended to run this 350W RMS sub off the 750W RMS amp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
Epic, I have a couple of sub recommendations. I don't think they have ever been mentioned as contenders on TBHP, but you will be gobsmacked if you hear them. They will probably put the ones mentioned above to shame.

Diamond Audio Hex Pro 12
Digital Designs DD1000

Forget about published specs. They are rarely accurate. If possible try to audition all the subs with your own amp and arrive at a decision.

Among the more mainstream brands, my fave is the JL. They have a well earned reputation.
Ive heard of Diamond Audio but are these subs/brands available here in Mumbai?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
For that money I would suggest the JL W6 or the Morel.
Very important point here again by Invinsible! As I had mentioned before, the reason I was looking at the Infinity Kappa 120.9 in the first place was because of it rave reviews and most importantly its price!! I believe the Kappa is around 15k? So what would be the cost of the JL W6 and Morel? I am sure it will be double that of the Kappa?

Hence my question is, can the Kappa be compared to the JL W6 and Morel in terms of being a better sub in terms of specs? If not better, at least in par? If yes, I am assuming the Kappa to be the winner here especially for what it offers at the price!

Last edited by Epic : 18th September 2010 at 11:18.
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:18   #55
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
The sensitivity is a figure which is measured by different manufacture in differnt ways. I would not consider them as the refernce one till I put them in this calculater...

mh-audio.nl - Home

So after putting them in this for the Infifnty sub it comes to 85.1 db.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1825643-post8.html

LBM mh-audio.nl is great software and have used it before for reference. However it measures the specs in free air. In car efficiency is higher than the one measured by Mh-audio.
Infinity mentions the sensitivity for In car use and not for free air.
Just like the low end frequency that has a cabin gain from 6-9db or somecases in upwards, same way the sensitivity differs from open air than In car. Plus what you are concluding from the software is efficiency and not sensitivity. Efficiency is power out/power in. Sensitivity is power out/voltage in. Mh-audio calculation is based on the drivers output rating. This is my understanding.

Try this software instead Winspeakerz deluxe by True Audio's Product Catalog to get the right calibration of the drivers.
You will also notice when you use their calculation for maximum SPL it measures it open air and In car. It just gives you rough idea as to what the sub is capable of.

Last edited by Invinsible : 18th September 2010 at 11:34.
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Old 18th September 2010, 11:57   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
For that money I would suggest the JL W6 or the Morel.


Very important point here again by Invinsible! As I had mentioned before, the reason I was looking at the Infinity Kappa 120.9 in the first place was because of it rave reviews and most importantly its price!! I believe the Kappa is around 15k? So what would be the cost of the JL W6 and Morel? I am sure it will be double that of the Kappa?

Hence my question is, can the Kappa be compared to the JL W6 and Morel in terms of being a better sub in terms of specs? If not better, at least in par? If yes, I am assuming the Kappa to be the winner here especially for what it offers at the price!
I am specifically looking for an answer to the above post. The answer to the above will clearly help make my decision. I also noticed that Invinsible previously mentioned that he was running high end equipment like the P01 head unit, high end amps & components, but using the Infinity Kappa 120.9 as the sub. This obviously means something?
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Old 18th September 2010, 12:02   #57
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Originally Posted by Epic View Post

Hence my question is, can the Kappa be compared to the JL W6 and Morel in terms of being a better sub in terms of specs? If not better, at least in par? If yes, I am assuming the Kappa to be the winner here especially for what it offers at the price!
If you compare Kappa with W6 and Morel I would say the latter definitely has an edge here. That's coz it's not just a matter of specs it's also the motor design/technology involved that matters. For which Morel ultimo does have an edge.
If we talk about frequecny response in car and on papers Kappa gives similar result compared to Morel and JL W6 in it's respective enclsoure size.
If we talk about sound quality well Morel Ultimo and W6 does have an edge. These subs are much more transparent. Each sub has it's own advantage and disadvantage. Kappa sub are surely very clean subs compared to others in it's price range and can easily blend well with your front stage just like the other subs that are mentioned here. Where kappa has an edge is the output. It's touch more louder compared to IDQ3. However their SQ levels are at par. If we talk about all rounder both IDQ3 and Kappa are.

Question to you is how much you want to spend and how much space are you willing to sacrifice and the amount of power available?
Choosing the Morel or W6 for now with the power available will mean you are underpowering the sub. But can be compensated with larger enclosure for now and once you upgrade the amp you could get a new enclosure to handle all 1000RMS.
Same way if you are willing to spend under 15K both Kappa and IDQ3 subs similar frequency response in their recommended enclosure size, similar power handling and can handle more power with right size of enclosure but kappa will have advantage with SPL at a given watt available for both.

Kappa will cost around 10K, IDq3 around 16k, Morel & W6 going 25K+.
Just for reference :
Morel shows sensitivity of 88db @ 2.83V/1m
If we calculate the efficiency in Mh-audio software with given factors like Fs:20, Qes: .46, Vas: 105L, the result is 84.4db as efficieny. The published sensitivity of Morel Ultimo 12" 2ohms is 88db at 2.83V/1m.


Quote:
I also noticed that Invinsible previously mentioned that he was running high end equipment like the P01 head unit, high end amps & components, but using the Infinity Kappa 120.9 as the sub. This obviously means something?
I suppose you misunderstood it, what I meant was I have the above stuff coming up for my setup but am not changing the sub for now. As would like to know how it does with these changes, with a new Headunit and amp. I still have to get the install done once everything is in it's place.

Last edited by Invinsible : 18th September 2010 at 12:09.
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Old 18th September 2010, 12:26   #58
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LBM mh-audio.nl is great software and have used it before for reference. However it measures the specs in free air. In car efficiency is higher than the one measured by Mh-audio.
But it will similar for all the sub either in car or in free air...Here is a link of a lengthy discussion on the subs sensitivity..

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...a-civic-7.html

Scroll down a little.
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Old 18th September 2010, 12:26   #59
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Question to you is how much you want to spend and how much space are you willing to sacrifice and the amount of power available?
Choosing the Morel or W6 for now with the power available will mean you are underpowering the sub. But can be compensated with larger enclosure for now and once you upgrade the amp you could get a new enclosure to handle all 1000RMS.
Same way if you are willing to spend under 15K both Kappa and IDQ3 subs similar frequency response in their recommended enclosure size, similar power handling and can handle more power with right size of enclosure but kappa will have advantage with SPL at a given watt available for both.

Kappa will cost around 10K, IDq3 around 16k, Morel & W6 going 25K+.
I think you have hit the nail on the head!! I don't intend spending 25k+ on a sub right and do not want to occupy anymore space at the moment.

Hence, looking at the current scenario, I believe as mentioned somewhere in an earlier post of mine, at the moment, I can probably go for the Infinity Kappa 120.9 in the specified sealed/ported enclosure and run it at 2 Ohms on my JBL 301.1 which will give it 300W RMS power.

When I do upgrade to the Audison LRx 5.1k, I can then choose to either run 02 Infinity Kappas OR just invest in the Morel/JL sub at that time.

I think this would be the best option as of now. What you guys think?

Last edited by Epic : 18th September 2010 at 12:28.
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Old 18th September 2010, 12:32   #60
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But it will similar for all the sub either in car or in free air...Here is a link of a lengthy discussion on the subs sensitivity..

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...a-civic-7.html

Scroll down a little.
Well in that case how would we explain this LBMbhai

Morel shows sensitivity of 88db @ 2.83V/1m
If we calculate the efficiency in Mh-audio software with given factors like Fs:20, Qes: .46, Vas: 105L, the result is 84.4db as efficieny. The published sensitivity of Morel Ultimo 12" 2ohms is 88db at 2.83V/1m.

Here's another explanation for reference its book by Ben Duncan http://books.google.co.in/books?id=M...ciency&f=false

Last edited by Invinsible : 18th September 2010 at 12:42.
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