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Old 21st February 2014, 04:18   #31
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Default Re: Amplifier and woofer/basetube for Santro Xing

Somethings happened to my post. Will do it again tomorrow if it doesn't come up by then.

Could one advise me on this particular HU? In case I pick this up then I'll have to go for cheaper speakers as my budget's 7K for rear coax and the HU.

It's the Pio X7590SD with 3 RCAs and a pretty good looking display. I could save a grand by going with the 1690UB as originally planned. The former is a better deal online and the latter, offline..

In case that HU makes the cut, then I might need to buy Pio A935 (very cheap online 2.3K) instead of the GT6 S699(3.1 K on SD) Can't think of any other speakers in this range. Sub will definitely come later but I wouldn't bank on it.
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Old 21st February 2014, 15:40   #32
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Default Re: HU and Speakers/ amp advice for a Xing?

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... I wonder why all the Sony hate? ...
As I said earlier, no one here hates Sony. Just that there are functionally better and reliability-wise superior products from others.

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... Pio amps are 22Wx4 and Sony 23Wx4 RMS ...
There is a lot more to amplifiers than published (and many times creatively massaged) ratings.

* If you critically listen to them, you will find the difference - some brands / models sound definitely much better. Ratings don't convey anything about that
* Look carefully at the THD and S/N Ratio figures - either the measurement conditions are not mentioned, or the best figures are presented - even if the best figures appear at levels you won't hear anything in the car
* The wattage put out in normal to loud listening is 1-12W rms for most of the music content (stuff below 80Hz needs much more). Ratings don't convey much about how well it performs at at demands higher than this. We all know what happens when one cranks up the volume

Besides power output what am I going against? They're 320KBPs MP3's and I wonder if an HU can make a difference until I move to my FLACs, which will play via AUX.

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... I've noticed power ratings steadily improve. My current Kenwood is 45Wx4 PMPO and nowadays they sell 55Wx4. ... In terms of pure power, wouldn't 55Wx4 thump 45Wx4 any day? ...
PMPO is never accompanied by conditions under which it was measured. Nor is the formula for arriving at the PMPO rating. 20 years back, hi-fi companies had a simple PMPO = 2 x RMS formula. Over the years, the numbers have increased to (with some manufacturers) 8x instead of 2x - and *none of them* explain how they arrived at the number. That is why one shouldn't compare PMPO numbers. The manufacturers are exploiting the tendency of people to treat acronyms written in ALL-CAPS as Standards, without even trying to understand what it stands for. They might as well write 40W FUBAR or 50W SNAFU!

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... This isn't external amps and are all MOSFETs. Whats to say that Sony circuitry would be inferior to others ? ...
Of your favorite eat-out dishes, say Naan, you will definitely say "the Naan at so&so place is far better than other places". All of them use the same flour - so what is the difference?

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... In case I'm to use 2 RCA for fading, then won't I be ...
Oh OK. No, that is not what I was telling you. Front is a pair of cables (for FL and FR). 1 RCA Pre-out is actually a pair of Pre-outs for Left and Right.

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... In case I use line level outputs for amping later, then I suppose 2 RCA allows me ...
No (for all the above). If you get 2 subs, they will both be connected in parallel or serial to bridge 2 channels of the amp. For driving the sub, you will need 1 pair of RCA cable to connect to the amp sub channels.
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Old 21st February 2014, 15:41   #33
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Default Re: HU and Speakers/ amp advice for a Xing?

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... This is besides the current idea of just amping the rear coaxials via RCA. ...
When you get the subs, shift the coaxes to the HU and then connect the sub to the freed-up channels.

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... Further fading on the AMP will introduce timing issues, ...
No timing issues with the fader.

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... Negotiated price after installation so got what I deserved. ...
Never buy before listening to speakers first.

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... I'll be going from using the inbuilt HPF on the HU that power the front 4" coaxes (say 23W RMS HU ) for 30W RMS speakers that are shrill already ...
Just let them play full range. HPF

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... besides rearing a rabbit for the girl). ...
Nice. How old is your daughter?

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... Tyre noise is significant ... I don't think it's feasible to do the floor. ...
The floor has rudimentary damping already. And, the tyre noise comes through the door hinge and doors!

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... I'm going to pick up aluminium clad bitumen sheets ...
Put only the bitumen sheets in that cavity, or rather the inner surface of the outermost metal layer of door. Some on the doorpad inside too. No thermocol-shermocol in the door - that and CC foam should go into the hatch and inside the side cladding inside the boot.

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... Should I stick the foam down or let it float like the fibrewool in my Edifiers? ...
Roll tightly and stuff between metal layers. Different objectives: Fibrewool is to damp the rear wave from the speakers; foam is to damp the vibration of the metal sheet.

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... if this is a good idea : 1 K over my current Pio Choice but Looks way better:...
Not significantly different, but yes.
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... On to the speakers ...
Only 1 criterion to decide: does it sound good to your ears? Audition in your car and decide. Don't look at power figures or XO or price.
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Old 21st February 2014, 18:01   #34
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Default Re: HU and Speakers/ amp advice for a Xing?

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The manufacturers are exploiting the tendency of people to treat acronyms written in ALL-CAPS as Standards, without even trying to understand what it stands for. They might as well write 40W FUBAR or 50W SNAFU!
Roger! Bought the Pioneer - DEH X7590SD . 3 RCA and Mixtrax. An SD should be discreet wonder with so many options why they support CDs today.

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Of your favorite eat-out dishes, say Naan, you will definitely say "the Naan at so&so place is far better than other places". All of them use the same flour - so what is the difference?
Got that I honestly thought that the speakers would have the greatest influence is everything else in the system is used below their rated RMS values.

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Front is a pair of cables (for FL and FR). 1 RCA Pre-out is actually a pair of Pre-outs for Left and Right.
I had no idea, color me stupid! Anyway, now that I've got 2 RCA's , I think I'll use one for the front , one for the back and leave one for the subs if and when they happen. Looking at the Sony N1004 AMP for the 4 Channel amping and will get something better for the subs (2 channel ofc) when I get rich enough.

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If you get 2 subs, they will both be connected in parallel or serial to bridge 2 channels of the amp. For driving the sub, you will need 1 pair of RCA cable to connect to the amp sub channels.
Dash! I thought one RCa- 2 channels -- wiring should be no different than regular speaker wiring?

If it's so, then what's the need to put anything in serial or parallel when I have independent outputs from the HU? If anything, 2 2 Ohm subs in series will become 4 Ohm and in parallel 1 ohm which sounds dangerous. So depending on what sub I buy, I'll have to elect series\ parallel so I thought going independent RCA is the best way out.

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When you get the subs, shift the coaxes to the HU and then connect the sub to the freed-up channels.
Don't think I'll need to now Plenty of connections.

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Just let them play full range. HPF
-----
Nice. How old is your daughter?
Full range for the front coaxes ( 4 inch Blau 402 HP ) seems to distort at even ~15W RMS ( big fat approximation) on the HU even though the speaker is rated for 30W RMS

--
That's my GF not by kid, I'm 23 ! Rabbit ( Benji short for Banjamin ) goes away in two days. Need to pick up a guinea pig to give it some company.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The floor has rudimentary damping already. And, the tyre noise comes through the door hinge and doors!
No fix for the door hinge of course. any point going A\B\C pillars?

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Only 1 criterion to decide: does it sound good to your ears? Audition in your car and decide. Don't look at power figures or XO or price.
Settling on the Pioneer A935H for the great specs and reputation but will buy them in store, and not online as I did for the HU.


Btw, got the Pio HU for 4.725 CoD from SD. MRP 9K

I am not complaining.
  • Hi-Volt RCA Preouts 3 (4 V)
  • D/A Converter 24-bit
  • Equalizer 5-Band GEQ
  • Crossover Network HPF/LPF
  • Loudness 3-Mode
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Old 23rd February 2014, 03:42   #35
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Default Re: Amplifier and woofer/basetube for Santro Xing

Hi!

JBL amps are pretty XP here. 6.5K + for a 4 channel. Late 2013 model, I missed it.

Here's what I have on the Sony N1004

Channel Configuration 4ch/3ch/2ch
Power Supply MOSFET Power Supply
Maximum Output Power 170Wx4 (4ohm), 500Wx2 (4ohm-BTL), 250Wx4 (2ohm)
Rated Output Power 70Wx4 (4ohm), 175Wx2 (4ohm-BTL), 85Wx4 (2ohm)
High Pass Filter / Slope 80Hz / 12dB/oct
Low Pass Filter / Slope 80Hz / 18dB/oct
Frequency Response 5-50kHz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 100dB
Total Harmonic Distortion (1kHz) 0.05%
Line In: Input Sensitivity (V) 0.3-6
Gold Plated Connectors Yes
Current Drain 36A
Load Capability Yes (2ohm)
Tolerance +0/-3dB

I understand these Snr ratings are definitely not at full load, but seem to be much higher than the competition. THD etc. At sub - full load levels should be fine, right? I notice JBL and Kenwood don't have service centre's in chandigarh so that would save me from a potential hassle.

The only reason I'm going with a 4 channel amp at this point is cause a. You recommended it, b. It is VFM at under 5K and puts out 70W @ 4ohm. Don't see why I'll ever need more than that.

Another thing I've noticed is the current Kenwood HU turning itself off when the ignition is turned. Will adding a cap in line to the stereo help? If so, which terminal, and is this a good idea in the long term?
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Old 24th February 2014, 14:00   #36
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Default Re: Amplifier and woofer/basetube for Santro Xing

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Originally Posted by wooka View Post
... I understand these Snr ratings are definitely not at full load, but seem to be much higher than the competition. THD etc. At sub - full load levels should be fine, right? I notice JBL and Kenwood don't have service centre's in chandigarh so that would save me from a potential hassle. ...
Go ahead - having a service center locally is insurance. I wouldn't worry about the SNR, THD etc. - beyond a certain point (much higher than this unit's) absolute values don't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wooka View Post
... current Kenwood HU turning itself off when the ignition is turned. Will adding a cap in line to the stereo help? If so, which terminal, and is this a good idea in the long term?
No it won't help. Most likely there is a loose connection somewhere.
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Old 24th February 2014, 19:09   #37
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Default Re: Amplifier and woofer/basetube for Santro Xing

Hi! I hear you about the loose connection but doesn't seem to be the deal. There is mild fading of the display at loud volumes and with high beams (100W)

I understand my battery's aging ( its a 2011 Exide) , but is there now way I can avoid this? I've seen people fitting military grade 1farad + caps to aid their stereos during power dips (as ignition draws a lot)

This happens on other's stereos as well so you'd be doing a lot of people I know, favors =)


Regarding the speaker selection, do both the infinity and Primus lines come with in line Crossovers? Accurate sound is not my thing ( as in a car I don't see things ever being accurate.. Have great monitors at home) and its more of a laid back neat but heavy bass signature I'm looking for. Unfortunately I don't have an amp right now and my dealer is not ready to hook up an amp just to check the speakers and how'd they perform at 70W RMS is anyone's guess..

How well do the infinity line hold up to heavy music? Triptykon heavy... I just don't want distortion / colorful highs..
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Old 25th February 2014, 08:27   #38
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Default Re: Amplifier and woofer/basetube for Santro Xing

Hi,

Before we proceed with products discussions has the listening pattern/choice been considered? The choice of HU, amps, sub and speakers all narrow down to your listening choice. The quality of your music would greatly be affected by your choice of the above equipment.

Whatever may be the case, please stick to products from reputed dealers with bill & warranty.
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Old 25th February 2014, 15:49   #39
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Default Re: Amplifier and woofer/basetube for Santro Xing

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... There is mild fading of the display at loud volumes and with high beams (100W) ...
Can happen - the LCD backlighting is dimming slightly when the battery voltage is dipping. I don't think this has anything to do with the problem you highlighted earlier

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... is there now way I can avoid this? I've seen people fitting military grade 1farad + caps to aid their stereos during power dips (as ignition draws a lot) ...
Sounds like the red wire BAT+ wire is disconnected from the back, or is loose.
- Ignition draw shouldn't affect the HU, IF the ACC signal and BAT+ signal are correctly connected. During cranking, ACC goes to 0V, but BAT+ maintains HU settings. It is a standard convention that all accessories should stop drawing current from battery during cranking
- Yes, people who install SQL systems (>110dB capability, usually 150W rms per channel and above) do use a massive capacitor in the fond hope of line voltage not dipping on heavy loads, including loud music passages. Your system is feather-weight in comparison LOL - doesn't need it

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... This happens on other's stereos as well so you'd be doing a lot of people I know, favors =) ...
Doesn't affect music, does it? It is only the display backlighting that is dimming.

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... Regarding the speaker selection, do both the infinity and Primus lines come with in line Crossovers? ...
IIRC they have separate XO boxes, not inline - which is usually just a capacitor.

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... How well do the infinity line hold up to heavy music? Triptykon heavy... I just don't want distortion / colorful highs..
It does - to levels that the cops / neighbors might complain.
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Old 4th March 2014, 00:34   #40
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Default Re: Amplifier and woofer/basetube for Santro Xing

Hey, so update - bought the Primus 9603is. Seeing as how they had anything that the 9603ix offered barring an in line capacitor, I saved a bit of money =) 3K off eBay.
Waiting on parts to arrive. Will update in a couple of days.
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Old 7th March 2014, 16:02   #41
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Default Re: Amplifier and woofer/basetube for Santro Xing

Copying off my post in the Swift section :

PIO DEH X3590UI
New HU purchased. Turns out, and this is a warning to everyone, please take caution.

A lot of Pioneer head units in reality output a different RMS even though all of them are 50Wx4 PMPO.

The 1690UB ( quite popular and cheap) is 14Wx4 RMS.
The top end models vary between 17 and 20 W RMS.

So far so good.

Got a quote for the N1004 Sony 4 channel amp for 4.1 Not in stock so will go back Monday.
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