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Old 2nd October 2010, 16:12   #16
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Just ask him to run the power and RCA cables on opposite sides of the car, and do the amp grounding properly (scraping the mounting area till bare metal shows).
Just wanted to share my experiences with a similar situation.

I got my ICE installed at this same place, I think i started a thread long ago with the same problem of alternator whine, at that time while trouble shooting he did route power and rca wires on opposite sides and also scraping the paint away for grounding. We even tried suspending the wires with the amp on a piece of wood but still wound up with alternator whine. Finally he suggested that the alternator was leaking current and to try putting wood below the alternator and battery but I didnt want to go to those extremes and live with the whine, it isn't too bad and mostly in the rear speakers so I dropped the gain there.

This is a Blau GTA4 amp
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Old 2nd October 2010, 17:42   #17
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Let's face it - the gentleman, despite his excellent skill at mounting and finishing, has no clue about ground loops and shielding. Suggesting putting wood below the alternator and battery is the proof that he is empirically suggesting solutions without having an inkling of the issues and preventive measures.

But, why complain! Skill and reputation is almost always accompanied by arrogance ("I know more than others") and a reluctance / refusal to comply to others' instructions. Just tackle that by firmly insisting on doing what we collectively know is right. He will learn soon enough that by refusing he has more to lose (reputation, to say the least) than gain by complying.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 18:25   #18
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My car and sanjay's car have the power and speaker cables running on the same side and there is no noise. It is usually not an issue when quality wires with good shielding is used.

I spoke to both Anachronix and Power Zone today.

Power Zone ran a separate Scosche speaker wires on the other side of the car as mentioned earlier by Anachronix. That wire was not even touching any part of the car body apparently but the noise still persists.

Power Zone also offered to swap out the Kappa with a Focal or an MTX on the spot and use the existing wires to see if the noise still persists.

Grounding was apparently done in the same way as was done in my car and sanjay's. Point is somewhere near the seat belt. It was re done in Anachronix's car by scraping even more.

I guess the next step would be to take it to another installer and re do the wiring again.

Last edited by Gilead : 2nd October 2010 at 18:31.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 18:30   #19
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No need to change the amp. The original premise of "Harman family amps are prone to Alternator Whine" is incorrect.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 18:50   #20
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
No need to change the amp. The original premise of "Harman family amps are prone to Alternator Whine" is incorrect.
I'm no expert, but isnt the easy solution to first swap it for another amp and check, rather than redoing the wiring over and over again? That way at least you rule out one possibility.

Or has this already been done?

Last edited by pras.oct25 : 2nd October 2010 at 18:54.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 18:57   #21
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
No need to change the amp. The original premise of "Harman family amps are prone to Alternator Whine" is incorrect.
This was not stated by Power Zone as per my conversation with him. He says he said that the only amps that have ever exhibited this phenomenon in his shop have almost always been Harman amps, mostly JBL. When it's a B&W amp, they are always replaced by the JBL distributor and the replacement amp would be perfectly fine. He has also installed loads of Harman amps that have never had this issue.

Last edited by Gilead : 2nd October 2010 at 18:58.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 19:25   #22
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I had a problem with my center speaker today morn when the car was first started. A constant noise (like we get while changing radio stations frequencies) started coming out of the center speaker immediately once the HU was turned on. The vol of the noise was constant, and increasin/decreasing the HU vol level did not have a effect on this. Trying putting center spkr as "None" using HU settings also did not stop the noise. It happenned early morn at 6am. Last night at around 10-10:30 when I used the car, everything was running fine. Did'nt have a clue why this was happening? Tried running the hu with the engine on/off, a/c on/off but no effect.

At 9 called up powerzone regarding the issue, and I was advised to come immediately with the car. This time when I started the car, the noise had vanished. Between 6am and 9am nothing had changed. I decided not to go, but observe further. Till now, it is going on good. Today took the car on high speeds above 100 but could not notice any whine or noise whatsoever.

Any ideas why the center speaker will start having the noise? Any loose connection issue? My setup includes a Tsunami capacitor, BTW..will that be a source of the problem. I have been using this setup almost 2 weeks now.

On a side note, with all the heavy duty insulation & casing avlbl, is running the RCA/power cable together much of an issue? Why I ask this - recently I upgraded my Home Theater system - due to non-availabity of proper electrical outlets, I am running with extension cables and what not - all my rear speaker/sub cables (Straightwire branded) and other power cables, including extension box, UPS, servo stabiliser,step-down transformer, heck even the a/c power cable - are running / crossing each other at some point or other. No noise of any kind whatsoever. The only noise I get is from the amp when input source is changed from stereo to dobly to dts etc, and the servo when voltage fluctuation is there.

EDIT: As Pras has posted, was any troubleshooting done by changing the amp - I have seen quite a few new amps (MTX I think) at his place..could not notice this step being performed from the earlier posts. Would'nt it be the most obvious thing to do before carrying out any other measure?

Last edited by sanjayc : 2nd October 2010 at 19:28.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 19:40   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
This was not stated by Power Zone as per my conversation with him. He says he said that the only amps that have ever exhibited this phenomenon in his shop have almost always been Harman amps, mostly JBL. When it's a B&W amp, they are always replaced by the JBL distributor and the replacement amp would be perfectly fine. He has also installed loads of Harman amps that have never had this issue.
Well, thats what he told me. IIRC he told me about some FET which is being used by the amps in the Harman family which are usually the cause of this problem. He mentioned that the same FET is used across JBL & Infinity amps since they are made in same factory and also look the same except for the badging and stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
My car and sanjay's car have the power and speaker cables running on the same side and there is no noise. It is usually not an issue when quality wires with good shielding is used.
You might want to speak to Sanjay about a problem he had PM'ed me about. I am no expert in ICE installation, but I have heard of the right cabling procedure in a car as running the power & RCA cables in opposite sides of the car.

Quote:
Power Zone ran a separate Scosche speaker wires on the other side of the car as mentioned earlier by Anachronix. That wire was not even touching any part of the car body apparently but the noise still persists.
The noise dint just persist, it became louder. He used a Scosche wire with very basic insulation.

Quote:
Power Zone also offered to swap out the Kappa with a Focal or an MTX on the spot and use the existing wires to see if the noise still persists.
He did offer to swap the amps. By then, he did a secret adjustment(reducing the gain apparently) and eliminated the whine. So, I was indeed happy that he got the problem resolved. I dint feel the need of doing the swap!

Quote:
Grounding was apparently done in the same way as was done in my car and sanjay's. Point is somewhere near the seat belt. It was re done in Anachronix's car by scraping even more.
The grounding was right below the rear seat. I dont think so he did scrap or did anything at the grounding point.

Quote:
I guess the next step would be to take it to another installer and re do the wiring again.
Thats not just the next step, thats the only option for me!
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Old 2nd October 2010, 19:55   #24
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
You might want to speak to Sanjay about a problem he had PM'ed me about.
The problem which I faced has magically healed itself,in a matter of 3 hours, without taking the car to PowerZone. However, I intend to get a checkup done, just in case some loose connections somewhere.

As of now, I am blaming some temporary Solar flare-ups / alien interference for causing the problem
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Old 2nd October 2010, 20:07   #25
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Sanjay!

I only hope its a minor one-off issue. Your wiring is relatively complex compared to mine.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 20:32   #26
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Anachronix,

I wish you good luck in fixing your issue.

That said, I can assure you that as DerAlte has mentioned, such a premise is misleading and I can assure you, quite untrue.
Within the Harman family, the Infinity Kappa Four is a premium amplifier, on of my favourites and definitely has no generic problem.

It is either a faulty amplifier (i doubt it) or a case of too high gain. In either case, I wish you good luck and you can find my official email address with a little research or on the website.

If I can help, I will.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 21:42   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Well, thats what he told me.
So we agree that what Power Zone actually said was faulty Harman amps have noise and not as what the title suggests. Maybe the title can be updated appropriately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The noise dint just persist, it became louder. He used a Scosche wire with very basic insulation.
Was the Scochse wire of such bad quality that it was attracting noise from the power cable running on the opposite side of the car? It just proves that the Kicker wire originally running alongside the power cable was of much higher quality, that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Thats not just the next step, thats the only option for me!
You also have the option of getting the amp checked by the local JBL guys even if the amp was bought abroad man. Do that before embarking upon an expensive rewiring again. You don't have anything to lose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
It is either a faulty amplifier (i doubt it) or a case of too high gain.
Anachronix confirmed earlier that the noise went away when the gain was reduced (secret installer technique) but apparently the quality that was there before was missing.

Last edited by Gilead : 2nd October 2010 at 21:47.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 01:12   #28
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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
You also have the option of getting the amp checked by the local JBL guys even if the amp was bought abroad man. Do that before embarking upon an expensive rewiring again. You don't have anything to lose.
+1 to this point.
What I dont get is how you can brand something as premium, and assume that theres no chance of it being faulty just because you paid a large amount for it.
Take sanjay's case for example. If I am right both his kenwood HU and his center speaker were found to be faulty during the install and replaced with other options.
You pay more for an item because the technology involved in the design of the equipment is far more advanced. So technically speaking even if the level of QA involved in testing this gadget is high, the chances of component failure is just as high because the sophistication level of the gadget is also high.
For all us car lovers taking apart the car again and again during these installs is a difficult thing to see. Would not the logical solution have been to check the amp first?

@anachronix - Perhaps you can try contacting the customer care number provided on the website you purchased the amp from. Maybe they can tell you how to handle issues like this with equipment that was bought in the US and taken outside.
If they have a database that contains a record of a previous complaint such as this about the amp, they might have the cause of the problem. If it is a case of a faulty component in the amp, you can get it replaced locally and see if the problem is solved.
Hopefully the solution to your problem will be less complicated than the actual problem itself
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Old 3rd October 2010, 07:56   #29
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Now let's assume it was a case of high gain causing the noise. Why was the gain high in the first place.

1. Your Alpine HU's CD player does not work therefore none of the reference CDs that Power Zone uses for tuning could be used.

2. Your Alpine HU does not play USB therefore the back up USBs that Power Zone uses could not be used as well.

3. Only your ipod could be used for tuning and the volume and quality variation is huge across folders. I know 'cos I am using your collection. Finally Power Zone had to transfer songs to his own ipod and use that or used your friend's ipod if I am not mistaken.

4. Power Zone spent over 2 hours using the ipod to tune the system originally to match your listening taste as you mentioned in another thread. Maybe the effect that was desired was achieved only when the gains were high which led to noise at high RPMs. That could not have been tested in the garage anyway.

Now you say the system plays without noise at a lesser gain level. You just need to increase the volume level at the HU to compensate for the gain reduction. If the details in the music that was there earlier is missing now, you could get the amp checked. Or the wiring re done. Apparently he called you yesterday and offered to open up his garage on a holiday to work on your car again. It's your call now.

Last edited by Gilead : 3rd October 2010 at 08:07.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 09:35   #30
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Anachronix@, you are getting the VIP treatment it seems man. Hope I can handover my crappy song list to him for tuning each song to my taste;-}

If all what Gilead said is true, IMHO, Powerzone deserves another shot. In case you are pissed off becos of his "trade secret" thingy, take it easy boss. All pros in all fields, tend to believe they are next to GOD...upfront they will rarely acknowledge anything wrong on their part, but trust me, they will go back and rethink and rectify - ego has a big part to play in this. Personally, I will not hold a grudge against him on this issue.

If I were you, I would have given him all reasonable chance to ensure there is no scope of any excuses left whatsoever.

In my case, after messing around with all eq settings/tuning etc for a week, when I took it to him, he politely asked me to step away while he does his stuff - sitting inside the car, all he could be doing was to modify settings avlbl in the HU..but still I let him have his space - the result was better tuning than the initial one.

BTW, I am planning to put his snap as a wallpaper on the HU - the mere mention thought of calling him up seems to have magically healed my problem
================
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
But, why complain! Skill and reputation is almost always accompanied by arrogance ("I know more than others") and a reluctance / refusal to comply to others' instructions. Just tackle that by firmly insisting on doing what we collectively know is right. He will learn soon enough that by refusing he has more to lose (reputation, to say the least) than gain by complying.
You said it Sir..spoken like a true Pro. But why blame this poor chap alone...I hope you agree most so-called Pros share the same trait.

The collective wisdom here it seems to be running the power/rca wires separately, proper grounding etc...it seems these were already done. What astounds me though is that the same collective wisdom fails to come to a conclusion regarding trying with a different amp!!

===========

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
It is either a faulty amplifier (i doubt it)
Sirjee, my next upgrade/purchase of anything to do with ICE, will definitely be from your stable. I am done with guesswork & researching...at least coming from you, I know there will not even be an iota of a chance of something going wrong with your products.
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