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Old 3rd October 2010, 11:29   #31
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Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
If all what Gilead said is true, IMHO, Powerzone deserves another shot. In case you are pissed off becos of his "trade secret" thingy, take it easy boss. All pros in all fields, tend to believe they are next to GOD...upfront they will rarely acknowledge anything wrong on their part, but trust me, they will go back and rethink and rectify - ego has a big part to play in this. Personally, I will not hold a grudge against him on this issue.
I agree. So called trade secrets are common in every field, so why can't an installer be entitled to his however trivial it may appear to those of us with forum knowledge. We drink Pepsi and Coke once in a while. Do we go around asking for the formula.

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Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
In my case, after messing around with all eq settings/tuning etc for a week, when I took it to him, he politely asked me to step away while he does his stuff - sitting inside the car, all he could be doing was to modify settings avlbl in the HU..but still I let him have his space - the result was better tuning than the initial one.
Well, it's a good thing you have taken photos of all the HU settings that he did.

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Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
Sirjee, my next upgrade/purchase of anything to do with ICE, will definitely be from your stable. I am done with guesswork & researching...at least coming from you, I know there will not even be an iota of a chance of something going wrong with your products.
JBL also distributes Panasonic HUs in India, so you may already be a bit safe in case that relationship covers JVC as well.

Anachronix: I think you would agree that the thread title is a bit misleading and sensational. As the thread starter, you may want to ask the mods to include the word faulty in the title because that was what Power Zone said.

He says he could have reduced gain right away to get rid of the noise but still he went ahead and checked the install for about 3 hours including running a Scochse on the other side because you specifically wanted the wiring checked. Apparently the HU now plays even at Vol 35 without distortion. If you are happy with it, leave it and get damping done. Else get the whole thing checked again either at Power Zone or somewhere else. He is still willing to go through your car again until you are satisfied. If you get your full satisfaction somewhere else, he will refund the wiring and install cost. That's it from me on this thread.

Last edited by Gilead : 3rd October 2010 at 11:36.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 17:39   #32
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Just my $0.02.

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Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
On a side note, with all the heavy duty insulation & casing avlbl, is running the RCA/power cable together much of an issue? Why I ask this - recently I upgraded my Home Theater system - due to non-availabity of proper electrical outlets, I am running with extension cables and what not - all my rear speaker/sub cables (Straightwire branded) and other power cables, including extension box, UPS, servo stabiliser,step-down transformer, heck even the a/c power cable - are running / crossing each other at some point or other.
Yes it matters. You're lucky you don't get noise, but if you were to design a Media room where all the wires were to be run through the same conduit, and if the system picked up a AC hum, you would have to break down all the walls/ ceilings to re-route the cables. As a rule, run the power atleast 1 foot away from signal. And if at all they HAVE to meet, have them cross over at right angles. Nothing empirical, or no trade secrets associated with all this. Its physics.

By the way, do try to increase the volume half way on your receiver and pause the program material that you are playing. Is there pin-drop silence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
Now let's assume it was a case of high gain causing the noise. Why was the gain high in the first place.
You have to check where the noise is entering the signal path in the first place. High gains have nothing to do with it. With high gain settings, you'll just end up with your system maxing out at a lower head unit volume level. And you'll hear the noise if the noise is being picked up and added to the signal en route to the amplifier. This itself absolves the amplifier of any mischief, to be honest.

In this case, I strongly suspect that the solution lies in:

1. Running power cables and RCA cables from opposite sides, if this is not already the case.

2. Using better quality RCA cables, with better shielding. And preferably a twisted pair of conductors.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 18:47   #33
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Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
By the way, do try to increase the volume half way on your receiver and pause the program material that you are playing. Is there pin-drop silence?
I agree the ideal way is to do as you suggested....am just waiting for enough time on hands to do it in a proper way.

Have tested with max vol - and ears to each of the speakers while starting/stopping/pausing/muting all input sources etc - total silence observed - hopefully the premium Straightwire cables are doing their job.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 19:05   #34
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Folks, thanks for all the expert opinion & support! I have got the problem fixed from a place where I should have actually gone for the installation.

The amp is not faulty! The comps are not faulty! The woofer is not faulty! The HU is not faulty! But, everything else. The power cables, RCA cables & finally the installation itself. A big failure!

Proper grounding & good RCA cables have arrested the whine for now. I have lot of work to be done in my car & I am finally hearing the actual performance of the Boston Pro60SE.

I will share more detailed horror stories of my install from Power Zone with pictures. For chennai folks, its a cheap GP Road type install and there are more shocking stuff that I have come to know about!

A special thanks to a BHPian who guided me to a decent installer and also for helping me actually tune my 9887.

Last edited by anachronix : 3rd October 2010 at 19:08.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 19:14   #35
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anachronix, could you please detail what model/make RCA cables were used for the install? It would also be good if you can detail the *shocking* part of PZ install.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 19:19   #36
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^^ You can find the details in my opening post.

I will be posting pics by tonight or tomorrow evening!
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Old 3rd October 2010, 21:07   #37
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Folks, now I have got a few pics that I could get from a friendly BHPian's phone cam.

Revelations from today's re-install!

1. Grounding

Grounding I believe is one of the important part of installation procedure to be rightly following during an ICE installation. There is no rocket science & engineering involved in doing a grounding. A bad job has its own limits and the problems observed.

Problem 1: The paint was not scrubbed off the grounding point
Problem 2: The grounding cable nearly 3 feet long.
Problem 3: The cable connected to the grounding point without a proper grounding pin. Not to mention the way the wire was twisted rubbishly around and connected.

Pic 1 : The way the wire was twisted without a proper grounding pin.

Alt Noise, due to shoddy installation by PowerZone, Chennai-actual.jpg

Pic 2: The way the grounding pin should have been.

Alt Noise, due to shoddy installation by PowerZone, Chennai-final.jpg

Pic 3: The grounding surface after being scrubbed off all the paint. It was not scrubbed by Power Zone.

Alt Noise, due to shoddy installation by PowerZone, Chennai-scrubbed.jpg

2. Quality of Wire

Caliber Power cables & RCAs were used. The Caliber RCA was used to feed the Front comps. Caliber Audio is local stuff, they were available for a few hundred rupees. I paid 2350INR for the same. I do feel that I should have insisted on using good quality power cables & RCAs atleast. Its my mistake. I did use a Kicker RCA which was supposed to be superior in quality compared to the Caliber Audio.

A question to Power Zone, if it was of superior quality & genuine Kicker why was it not used for connecting the front comps. The Caliber RCA was local quality anyway and it was picking up lot of noise, is the Kicker worse than the local quality Caliber?

I was shocked to hear this from a shop we went to buy a few stuff today, the Kicker RCAs are not genuine stuff and are available for less than 300 bucks with the Kicker decal!

Solution: I have got my RCAs swapped to E2 now and they are running through the right side of the car with the Power cables on the left. The way its supposed to be.

3. Work Ethics

Doing a work just for the heck of doing it, nobody is going to be happy. While tuning the HU, we were playing high volume and we could hear a wierd vibrating noise from the tweeter. We opened the tweeter housing and were shocked to find the tweeter left to hang around freely. It was not attached to the space provided for the tweeter to be seated perfectly. We then used thin bits of sticker material and attached the tweeters in the right slot.

Alt Noise, due to shoddy installation by PowerZone, Chennai-tweet.jpg

4. Tuning

My Alpine 9887's potential was unlocked today. It was tuned by 2 friendly BHPians, Sathee46 & . Thanks for all the support today.

They did an awesome job, there is lot of bass and superb mids from the Pro60SE. I am just loving every bit of it!

Minor pending work:

1. The local Caliber power cables have to be removed and good quality cables should be used. I dint have much time today and it was a Sunday, so I dint want to take too much time of my installer. I have planned this for the coming weekend.

2. The Crossovers of the Pro60SE are stuck inside the door which are to be removed and placed in the boot. Placing the crossover in the boot simply means you are betting on its life everytime you close the door with a bang.

To respond to queries posted here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead
I agree. So called trade secrets are common in every field, so why can't an installer be entitled to his however trivial it may appear to those of us with forum knowledge. We drink Pepsi and Coke once in a while. Do we go around asking for the formula.
If you thought I was pissed because of his trade secret then you got me wrong mate. Its about losing confidence or trust with a person who is working on my 7.5 Lakh worth property. Once I lose it I hate to give them a second chance. I am sure most of us do. I wanted to get it checked out by each every bits of his installation to know how much he has BS'ed. I have now found quite a lot of it and I am sure I took the right decision of taking it to a good installer.

Quote:
Anachronix: I think you would agree that the thread title is a bit misleading and sensational. As the thread starter, you may want to ask the mods to include the word faulty in the title because that was what Power Zone said.
A faulty amp from Harman will make alternator whining noise! What noise comes from a faulty Kenwood or Focal amp?

You should read this quote of mine from my opening post.

Quote:
1. The RCA & Wiring run together through the left side of the car. Removed the RCA to the Comps, connected a different RCA (Scocshe with very little insulation though) through the inside of the car away from the Power cable. The whine noise increased a bit more to the audible limit.
If the amp was at fault, why would the whine increase when a RCA with very basic insulation was used. This basically gave me confidence that the amp was clean and it is!

Quote:
He says he could have reduced gain right away to get rid of the noise but still he went ahead and checked the install for about 3 hours including running a Scochse on the other side because you specifically wanted the wiring checked. Apparently the HU now plays even at Vol 35 without distortion.
The speakers were under fed with the reduced gain, what else is expected. I can keep the volume at 35 all day.

Quote:
If you are happy with it, leave it and get damping done. Else get the whole thing checked again either at Power Zone or somewhere else. He is still willing to go through your car again until you are satisfied. If you get your full satisfaction somewhere else, he will refund the wiring and install cost. That's it from me on this thread.
Yes, damping should be done but only after proper installation. I have got the installation done well now. I am ready to give Power Zone an audition.

Whats the deal now?

I would be happy if he agrees to all the mess that he did in my car. Money wasted is wasted for me and it will atleast help me remember the lessons learnt.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 21:08   #38
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we are very eager to know the shocking details please post it very soon we can't wait any longer by the way can you kindly give the details where you found the decent installer in chennai which will help us
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Old 3rd October 2010, 21:19   #39
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Arun, congrats on getting your ICE fixed to your full satisfaction. I know how satisfying it must be after a lot of wait and money spent. I experienced the same a while back and I am truly happy for you.

Please accept my apologies for recommending Power Zone to you. The work done on my car was fantastic and a proper grounding pin was indeed used in mine. I am sorry to hear that proper procedure was not followed in your case and possibly even a fake Kicker used. Power Zone owes you a refund like he committed. You may want to give him a demo and collect the money.

Only yesterday someone was telling me that a particular BHP-ian would jump in to save your day and I am glad he delivered. And I am sure Sathee46 is the best guy you can get to tune your Alpine as he has one himself. I hope you have plans to connect the Imprint and get the damping done soon.

Can't wait for an audition. Enjoy the music and don't forget to create your thread in the Sound off Show off section.

Last edited by Gilead : 3rd October 2010 at 21:23.
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Old 3rd October 2010, 21:27   #40
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@anachronix -
A couple of queries I have here:
You would have been informed about the cables that would be used in the install before hand right?
Did you not consider picking up a Scosche e2 wiring kit by yourself from any shop rather than depending on this brand called caliber?

Secondly, how can you depend on the installer, or others for doing your tuning for you?
Frankly, Power zone's tuning was bright for my taste. What I did was sit with my car for about 1 or 2 hours and try out various combinations on my equalizer until I found the sound to match my taste. I took inputs from the equalizer setting he had done to arrive at the perfect combination.
Tuning should be done to each person's taste. What one perceives as bright or heavy might be just the opposite for someone else.

These are 2 very general queries, please dont take them personally. I have seen a lot of people either compliment the installer greatly, or bring him down badly in terms of certain criteria such as tuning, hence I am posing these questions to bring out a neutral answer.
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Old 4th October 2010, 07:58   #41
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@anachronix, good to see this end to your satisfaction. Please post the details of the place where you got this done, just in case my center speaker issue resurfaces.

BTW, dont forget to collect your refund from powerzone!
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Old 4th October 2010, 09:24   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
@anachronix, good to see this end to your satisfaction. Please post the details of the place where you got this done, just in case my center speaker issue resurfaces.

BTW, dont forget to collect your refund from powerzone!
+1.

@ Anachronix, I'm appalled on reading your ICE install experience at PZ.
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Old 4th October 2010, 10:48   #43
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Good that its resolved now!

Maybe the thread title can now be modified as "PowerZone says ............ True!? - Wrong!"

Btw can you show us the pics of the suspect RCA cables?

Last edited by Sankar : 4th October 2010 at 10:49.
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Old 4th October 2010, 11:19   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
My car and sanjay's car have the power and speaker cables running on the same side and there is no noise..
Sure I have seen many a car done that way but when there is a safer way (power can RCA cables on opposite sides) why not use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
He says he said that the only amps that have ever exhibited this phenomenon in his shop have almost always been Harman amps, mostly JBL.
On TBHP's ICE section you will find many a post about amps and whine. Not all all JBL or Harman. The problem usually is a bad install or in rare cases a faulty amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
Why I ask this - recently I upgraded my Home Theater system - due to non-availabity of proper electrical outlets, I am running with extension cables and what not - all my rear speaker/sub cables (Straightwire branded) and other power cables, including extension box, UPS, servo stabiliser,step-down transformer, heck even the a/c power cable - are running / crossing each other at some point
a. your home stereo does not have an alternator in the circuit.
b. the noise is induced when the wires run parallel to each other not crossing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
All pros in all fields, tend to believe they are next to GOD...
I dont think this is true. A few might behave this way but most Pros are very down to earth and welcoming. They realise that they are providing a service; and when doing so a smile and a patient ear always helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
2. The Crossovers of the Pro60SE are stuck inside the door which are to be removed and placed in the boot. Placing the crossover in the boot simply means you are betting on its life everytime you close the door with a bang.

A faulty amp from Harman will make alternator whining noise! What noise comes from a faulty Kenwood or Focal amp?
Please install the crossovers either in the dash or in the trunk.

Amps of all sorts will get affected by alternator noise if the install is not done correctly.
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Old 4th October 2010, 12:32   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead
Please accept my apologies for recommending Power Zone to you. The work done on my car was fantastic and a proper grounding pin was indeed used in mine. I am sorry to hear that proper procedure was not followed in your case and possibly even a fake Kicker used. Power Zone owes you a refund like he committed. You may want to give him a demo and collect the money.
I will give him a demo for sure!

Quote:
Only yesterday someone was telling me that a particular BHP-ian would jump in to save your day and I am glad he delivered. And I am sure Sathee46 is the best guy you can get to tune your Alpine as he has one himself. I hope you have plans to connect the Imprint and get the damping done soon.
That particular BHPian is the one I should have talked to first. Anyway, I am through a bit of learning with the ICE install and I can help other folks as well.

Quote:
Can't wait for an audition. Enjoy the music and don't forget to create your thread in the Sound off Show off section.
I hope you enjoyed the audition today. Please share any feedbacks that you might have!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pras.oct25 View Post
@anachronix -
A couple of queries I have here:
You would have been informed about the cables that would be used in the install before hand right?
Did you not consider picking up a Scosche e2 wiring kit by yourself from any shop rather than depending on this brand called caliber?
He informed me about the super effeciency of the cable. He gave quite of lot of gyans infact. I have no clue about ICE installation and the kind of feedback I had read here about him on TBHP made me believe him. Lack of awareness from my part as well to be blamed. Otherwise, a superb learning if you ask me!

Quote:
Secondly, how can you depend on the installer, or others for doing your tuning for you?
Frankly, Power zone's tuning was bright for my taste. What I did was sit with my car for about 1 or 2 hours and try out various combinations on my equalizer until I found the sound to match my taste. I took inputs from the equalizer setting he had done to arrive at the perfect combination.
Tuning should be done to each person's taste. What one perceives as bright or heavy might be just the opposite for someone else.
IMO, there are 2 phases of tuning.

1. Unlocking the basic potential of your HU & Amp settings to map the speakers. -

A simple example - I am currently running the front comps & the woofer. The Alpine HU has a setting to run different modes with either a front-comps/subwoofer or front-comps/rear/subwoofer. This setting was not adjusted in the HU by Powerzone. The gain settings in amps were too high as well which was distorting too much at slightly higher volume.

2. Tuning the EQ settings to one's personal taste - This I can never complain since I got it tuned to my taste.

Quote:
These are 2 very general queries, please dont take them personally. I have seen a lot of people either compliment the installer greatly, or bring him down badly in terms of certain criteria such as tuning, hence I am posing these questions to bring out a neutral answer.
Nothing personal mate. The tuning is a minor bit of the issue I had with him. The problem was everything to do with the installation.

You wont believe, the first time when I took my car to him and asked him to check for alternator whine he told me its coming from my engine compartment and not the speaker (The day the Linea was being done up at his place and we met there). I was waiting for him to finish the work on the Linea to get this checked. I took the car back thinking its some issue with my car and I thoroughly checked for the noise for nearly 3 days before I took it to him again to fix it.

He had 2 chances to fix what he had messed up in my car. I still dont understand why he was least bothered to check the grounding or change the RCAs to good quality. He was still giving gyans about the local Caliber cable's effeciency. Its a disgusting thing really! Typical GP road stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
@anachronix, good to see this end to your satisfaction. Please post the details of the place where you got this done, just in case my center speaker issue resurfaces.

BTW, dont forget to collect your refund from powerzone!
Thanks Sanjay. If you have any problems, we have good BHPians to help. Dont worry. I will send you a PM.

Collect the funds back from him!? I dont want kid myself about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
+1.

@ Anachronix, I'm appalled on reading your ICE install experience at PZ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Good that its resolved now!

Maybe the thread title can now be modified as "PowerZone says ............ True!? - Wrong!"

Btw can you show us the pics of the suspect RCA cables?
Thanks mate! I have to check if I have got pictures of that. We threw the RCAs into a trash bin before we left the place

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Sure I have seen many a car done that way but when there is a safer way (power can RCA cables on opposite sides) why not use it?
+1

I dont understand why my installer was totally against this procedure. He was more interested in proving what he believed(running power & RCA on same side) was right;

Quote:
On TBHP's ICE section you will find many a post about amps and whine. Not all all JBL or Harman. The problem usually is a bad install or in rare cases a faulty amp.
This thread should be proof enough for that. It was funny when he quoted JBL/Infinity amps to be whine prone. That really made me post my complete experience. This is not the first time I am purchasing a Harman product anyway!

Quote:
Please install the crossovers either in the dash or in the trunk.
I am getting them installed in the boot. The door is not a safe place for them right!
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