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Old 15th October 2010, 07:37   #16
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Since you are gonna use Morel drivers I suggest you look for amp which could put out more power. Morel loves power and having more head room is always better.
If it's a MT23 tweeter, it's a 6 ohm tweeter which means you using an amp putting 75rms each ch. the tweeter will get about 50-60RMS only. These tweets are rated at 130RMS I would look for an amp that would atleast putout 100Rms at 6 ohms.
Also, keep in mind the tweeter are 2db more sensitive than the midrange, in order to have the right balance I would suggest look for an amp that atleast puts out 100x4 since the mid and tweeter are gonna be playing major part of the music give them the best.
If you plan to use a passive xover look for atleast 125RMS or 150RMS should be good.

How much are willing to spare on the amp ?
About 30 INR at the max.

I am getting the DLS RA40 and ID Q450.4 within this.

I also have an option of opting for the RA20 at 23K. it gives 130 rms @ 4 ohms. So is this fine if i use a passiv XO between the mids and the tweetes ?



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Originally Posted by thelord View Post
Yep, exactly what I meant! Thanks!

I have a quick question though. The Eclipse 7200 MKII has 3 preouts. One I assume you'll be using for the sub. The 2nd will go to the Morel mid-basses. How do you plan to run a 4 channel amp on just the 3rd pre-out? I mean yes, splitting the signal is one option, and some amps support pre-in/pre-out but I guess that's not what you are looking for right?

Just curious as your setup is quite close to what I'd invest in if I have the moolah
If its not a dual mono, then you can give in just 1 pair of input and take out two pairs of out put in a 4 CH AMp. Its like the signal is automatically split.

and ya, Sereis III and stuff i can only dream on for that price
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Old 15th October 2010, 11:16   #17
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About 30 INR at the max.

I am getting the DLS RA40 and ID Q450.4 within this.

I also have an option of opting for the RA20 at 23K. it gives 130 rms @ 4 ohms. So is this fine if i use a passiv XO between the mids and the tweetes ?

Well it depends how much power can your passive xo handle. RA20 is good. However I would suggest Arc KS series over it. Both DLS and Morel are warm sounding. In which Arc and morel will give slight better result as the Arc's sound is a bit uncolored.


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If its not a dual mono, then you can give in just 1 pair of input and take out two pairs of out put in a 4 CH AMp. Its like the signal is automatically split.
You meaning splitting the stereo signal using the Y-Cable. You could also look for a 2 channel xo which gives you bi-amp option and run the tweeter and midrange with it that way you could get a 4 channel and feed them more power.
However running the mid and tweeter active will give much better result. As I said mid & tweeter will be running major part of music in which case its good to give them the best.
You could look for getting the Morel Accuset mx-22.2 which can be bi-amped too but the xo point is 1800hz which is not so bad. If you look at response of CDM88 you will notice that the off-axis response stays similar to the on-axis response 2000hz after which it starts dropping in off-axis. If you plan to keep the Mid and tweeter close to eachother you could have the option to mount the mid even in offaxis while keep the tweeter on-axis. The advantage here is you could bi-amp both the tweeter and mid and also set the TA & gain. The idea when doing mid-tweeter actively passive is to have the right balance between the two.

Last edited by Invinsible : 15th October 2010 at 11:35.
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Old 15th October 2010, 12:15   #18
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Well it depends how much power can your passive xo handle. RA20 is good. However I would suggest Arc KS series over it. Both DLS and Morel are warm sounding. In which Arc and morel will give slight better result as the Arc's sound is a bit uncolored.




You meaning splitting the stereo signal using the Y-Cable. You could also look for a 2 channel xo which gives you bi-amp option and run the tweeter and midrange with it that way you could get a 4 channel and feed them more power.
However running the mid and tweeter active will give much better result. As I said mid & tweeter will be running major part of music in which case its good to give them the best.
You could look for getting the Morel Accuset mx-22.2 which can be bi-amped too but the xo point is 1800hz which is not so bad. If you look at response of CDM88 you will notice that the off-axis response stays similar to the on-axis response 2000hz after which it starts dropping in off-axis. If you plan to keep the Mid and tweeter close to eachother you could have the option to mount the mid even in offaxis while keep the tweeter on-axis. The advantage here is you could bi-amp both the tweeter and mid and also set the TA & gain. The idea when doing mid-tweeter actively passive is to have the right balance between the two.
Right now i am tilting towards RA20.

BTW,

I have a Biampable Kenwood XR-4S that can do all you ve mentioned. Give out 120W RMS x 4.

My only concern is its a Class D. But if i have no other choice, i ll go with this.

I have a passive XO (from Morel Tempo) that has a Xover of 3800 Hz @ 6 db. I can use this too. (provided i mount them close together)
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Old 15th October 2010, 13:57   #19
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Right now i am tilting towards RA20.

BTW,

I have a Biampable Kenwood XR-4S that can do all you ve mentioned. Give out 120W RMS x 4.

My only concern is its a Class D. But if i have no other choice, i ll go with this.

I have a passive XO (from Morel Tempo) that has a Xover of 3800 Hz @ 6 db. I can use this too. (provided i mount them close together)
You plan to run a 4 ohm mid and 6 ohm tweeter on a xover designed to run 4 ohm midwoofer and tweeter. Its important to match the proper value of the coil or capacitor to the speaker. It's not a good idea all around. The x-over points will change, that's fine. We can adjust for that. However, if there's a Zobel Network in there that can mess things up pretty well in your upper midrange of your mid. This may not give the desired result.
The other issue will be at 3800hz at 6db there's going to phase issue. When running the mid and tweeter close or next to eachother I would suggest steeper slope, 2nd or 3rd order slope.
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Old 15th October 2010, 14:59   #20
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You plan to run a 4 ohm mid and 6 ohm tweeter on a xover designed to run 4 ohm midwoofer and tweeter. Its important to match the proper value of the coil or capacitor to the speaker. It's not a good idea all around. The x-over points will change, that's fine. We can adjust for that. However, if there's a Zobel Network in there that can mess things up pretty well in your upper midrange of your mid. This may not give the desired result.
The other issue will be at 3800hz at 6db there's going to phase issue. When running the mid and tweeter close or next to eachother I would suggest steeper slope, 2nd or 3rd order slope.
How about adding resistor in sereis to the tweeter to make it 4 ohm ?

Well, how do we know if its a Zobel network. From what i see, i seems very simple, An Inductor and an Capacitor and an resistor is what i can find in the X over. Seems like a simple first order Butterworth to me.

Else the other Option would be to get a 2/3 way active crossover (from Kicker / Calrion / ARc Audio) and use it along.
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Old 15th October 2010, 15:12   #21
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When one adds a resistor in series, the resultant value is the sum of both! To reduce the resistance one has to connect it in parallel. In either case, this will actually result in power being reduced to /diverted from the tweeter (one way of reducing brightness of a tweeter), not added to it. The impedance of the tweeter is an inherent property, one can't change it by such means.
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Old 15th October 2010, 15:42   #22
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I'd second Invinsible's suggestion. The midrange and the tweeter form the 'musical' part of the ICE setup. Any phase difference will be easy noticeable in this range.

I've read Morel invests a fair amount into their crossover networks as well. MX-22.2 looks like a good option. It comes as part of the Elate package which also has the MT23 tweeter. So it's kind of already fine tuned for that tweeter. Power it with ~100W*4 of clean power and you should be good to go! Other than DLS RA40 ~30k, Genesis Profile 4 Ultra is another option. Should be available for ~36k and it does more than 100W*4 easily.
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Old 15th October 2010, 16:07   #23
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
When one adds a resistor in series, the resultant value is the sum of both! To reduce the resistance one has to connect it in parallel. In either case, this will actually result in power being reduced to /diverted from the tweeter (one way of reducing brightness of a tweeter), not added to it. The impedance of the tweeter is an inherent property, one can't change it by such means.
Yes, i read you ji. You can t really change the impedance as such.


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Originally Posted by thelord View Post
I'd second Invinsible's suggestion. The midrange and the tweeter form the 'musical' part of the ICE setup. Any phase difference will be easy noticeable in this range.

I've read Morel invests a fair amount into their crossover networks as well. MX-22.2 looks like a good option. It comes as part of the Elate package which also has the MT23 tweeter. So it's kind of already fine tuned for that tweeter. Power it with ~100W*4 of clean power and you should be good to go! Other than DLS RA40 ~30k, Genesis Profile 4 Ultra is another option. Should be available for ~36k and it does more than 100W*4 easily.
But its Xover Freq is 1800 Hz, which well into the mid range territory. And my CDM 88 wont have much role to play, if i BP her from 600 Hz to 1800 Hz, which is less then a bare minimum of 2 octaves.

Anyway, for investing in $250 in MX22.2, i would go with a better Amp with variable onboard Xovers.

Ya the Profile Ultra is a good option. It aslo has variable Xovers, i think.
The other Pricey Option is the Focal FPS sereis. The 4 Ch from it has 120W RMS x 4 at the same time has fully variable Xovers.

With the above options, probly i can BP the Mid Range from 600Hz-5Khz
and then the Tweeter can pick up from 5Khz

And i think both the amps come with a second order slope, so the Phasing issue should'nt ne much of an issue.

On a slightly different note;
How is the DLS RA20 on my Mid bass (it will be BP'ed between 80 hz - 600 Hz) Although its rated at 160w rms, for a narrow range of frequencies wont 130 rms of DLS power be enough ?

Appreciate all your responses, Thanks a lot guys
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Old 15th October 2010, 16:16   #24
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How about adding resistor in sereis to the tweeter to make it 4 ohm ?

Well, how do we know if its a Zobel network. From what i see, i seems very simple, An Inductor and an Capacitor and an resistor is what i can find in the X over. Seems like a simple first order Butterworth to me.

Else the other Option would be to get a 2/3 way active crossover (from Kicker / Calrion / ARc Audio) and use it along.
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
When one adds a resistor in series, the resultant value is the sum of both! To reduce the resistance one has to connect it in parallel. In either case, this will actually result in power being reduced to /diverted from the tweeter (one way of reducing brightness of a tweeter), not added to it. The impedance of the tweeter is an inherent property, one can't change it by such means.
In short Mi10 it'll be a mess. I suggest either get an external processor like RF 360.2 or Bit one or pick one of the Morel 22.2 xover that would even let you play around with 1st or 2nd order slope and even let attenuate +/- 2db for the tweeter as per preference. One mention, tweeter is 2db more sensitive and attenuating to -2db will in blending the tweeter better the midrange. crossing the mid between 600 to 1800hz will give flat out response whether on-axis or off-axis.

If not you could get the processor where you would get the advantage of TA and EQ. You could use the high and mid output of the HU for the tweeter and midrange and take the sub output to the processor to run the midbass and sub.

Quote:
But its Xover Freq is 1800 Hz, which well into the mid range territory. And my CDM 88 wont have much role to play, if i BP her from 600 Hz to 1800 Hz, which is less then a bare minimum of 2 octaves.

Anyway, for investing in $250 in MX22.2, i would go with a better Amp with variable onboard Xovers.
If you keep the midrange and tweeter next to eachother it would act and result in as one driver. As i mentioned the BP will give flat out response which a woofer may not. The output of the mid between 600 to 1800hz will be the same even if you place it off axis which is good.

Investing in an amp will give xover option too and thats where amp like Arc KS 300.4 comes into play. However you won't be able to TA either left tweeter or right and same for the mids since you will have to split the signal and run the 4 ch. amp. In short your TA is badly affected. For Ex: if you split the left channel and feed to the front input of the amp which you could choose to run either the tweeter or the mid you can set the TA only for that one left channel that is being split not the left or right side tweeter/mid.

Well I would choose the arc over focal if i were you.

Last edited by Invinsible : 15th October 2010 at 16:31.
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Old 15th October 2010, 17:37   #25
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If you keep the midrange and tweeter next to eachother it would act and result in as one driver. As i mentioned the BP will give flat out response which a woofer may not. The output of the mid between 600 to 1800hz will be the same even if you place it off axis which is good.
Hmmm, i see your point here. But isn't the CDM 88 capable of delivering flat response till 4Khz ? So why waste it ?

Infact had this conversation come up earlier, i would have opted for the Integra Ovation "point source" speakers. Where you also have a Biampable crossover.

ANyway, lets not digress from the mainstream now.


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Investing in an amp will give xover option too and thats where amp like Arc KS 300.4 comes into play. However you won't be able to TA either left tweeter or right and same for the mids since you will have to split the signal and run the 4 ch. amp. In short your TA is badly affected. For Ex: if you split the left channel and feed to the front input of the amp which you could choose to run either the tweeter or the mid you can set the TA only for that one left channel that is being split not the left or right side tweeter/mid.
Agreed. What you say is true if i am using a Y-Splitter to split the signals and then feed'em to a 4 Ch Amp.

But what happens if the Amp is capable of internal Signal Splitting / or rather Biampable ones where you just feed in the HIgh preouts to one pair of inputs and draw out two pairs of output from the same amp.

THe TA, i assume will still follow the signal and hence if i position the tweeter close enough, it will act as one speaker (Mid + Tweeter)

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Well I would choose the arc over focal if i were you.
But by the specs, the FPS seem to have a higher advantage then the KS. (Except for that Robert Zeff part though)
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Old 15th October 2010, 18:13   #26
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Hmmm, i see your point here. But isn't the CDM 88 capable of delivering flat response till 4Khz ? So why waste it ?

Infact had this conversation come up earlier, i would have opted for the Integra Ovation "point source" speakers. Where you also have a Biampable crossover.

ANyway, lets not digress from the mainstream now.
It does have flat response when played it on axis. What important here is where you plan to install the mid. If you plan to keep the tweeter next to the mids, than you can mount the mid on Apiller slightly offaxis to accommodate the tweeter which could be on axis.
If you mounting the mids away from the tweeter than would make sense to cross them higher.
In either way if you choose to get the passive xo keep the mid and tweeter next to each other.

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Agreed. What you say is true if i am using a Y-Splitter to split the signals and then feed'em to a 4 Ch Amp.

But what happens if the Amp is capable of internal Signal Splitting / or rather Biampable ones where you just feed in the HIgh preouts to one pair of inputs and draw out two pairs of output from the same amp.

THe TA, i assume will still follow the signal and hence if i position the tweeter close enough, it will act as one speaker (Mid + Tweeter)
Either way you would need to feed the amp with mono signal. you have 2 preout and a 4 channel to work with. The left and right preout channel from the HU is what you plan to split. For the TA to work on those 2 channels not all 4 channel.
What amp your talking off that can do what you mentioned.



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But by the specs, the FPS seem to have a higher advantage then the KS. (Except for that Robert Zeff part though)
It's not always about the specs. There are tons of review out there on the KS series amp. You save the money over Focal and get one of these and a passive xo and still have some left over.
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Old 15th October 2010, 18:28   #27
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In either way if you choose to get the passive xo keep the mid and tweeter next to each other.
Yup, i will ensure they are as close as possible


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Either way you would need to feed the amp with mono signal. you have 2 preout and a 4 channel to work with. The left and right preout channel from the HU is what you plan to split. For the TA to work on those 2 channels not all 4 channel.
What amp your talking off that can do what you mentioned.
The Kenwood XR-4S that is advertized as, just not a Signal splitting Amp, but a Biampable one.

Any I think have a fair share of Experimenting to do, before i get it all right.

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It's not always about the specs. There are tons of review out there on the KS series amp. You save the money over Focal and get one of these and a passive xo and still have some left over.
Hmm, will check out for sure.

Last edited by Mi10 : 15th October 2010 at 18:29.
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Old 19th October 2010, 07:35   #28
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Guys whats your take on the Genesis Profile 2 Ultra.

Gives 150 rms x 2 and tad under 25 grand
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Old 19th October 2010, 12:07   #29
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Guys whats your take on the Genesis Profile 2 Ultra.

Gives 150 rms x 2 and tad under 25 grand
I really wouldn't suggest Profile series amp. There have been issues of amp tripping when working under full load. And with 8V preout of Eclipse this may be the common occurrence since profile series has input sensitivity of upto 4V.
It's also good too match these figures or keep as close as possible.
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Old 19th October 2010, 17:19   #30
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... issues of amp tripping when working under full load. ...
Hmm, didn't expect a Genesys to suffer from bad heat dissipation - trip it can only for that reason.

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... And with 8V preout of Eclipse this may be the common occurrence since profile series has input sensitivity of upto 4V. ...
This can only cause clipping (and the attendant distortion) - not tripping or any other destructive problem, no?
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