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Old 28th October 2010, 10:42   #16
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
No. Tried for an extended duration this morning and no issues at all.
Car starts & works fine.
This is suspect no.1. But what is causing it and, more important, where is the solution?
I can confirm that the sound goes nearly completely off at times.
Also, more information for Sam : Yes, the sub-woofer also cuts out. Therefore, its the front + rear speakers + subwoofer losing sound.
Don't think so. Why would the sound never cut off at high rpms or on the open road then?
So its not the battery capability. Its not distribution. Its not psycho-acoustic.

A meter at the amp terminals or the distribution line would confirm it. While it maybe slightly dangerous its a suggested try. This you said you would do over the weekend.
Hmmm to check if the issue is load why don't you try using just ONE amp. Maybe just the front pair and see if it does the same thing. If it does do the same thing This would rule out the load factor. That is to say if it still clips despite running much lower load then the load isn't the culprit its the overall power system. Then you can look at the battery and alternator. Its much lesser hazard too than making someone sit with a meter at the terminals to determine power. Though I maybe wrong. Someone better knowledgeable needs to ratify my theory.
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Old 28th October 2010, 10:52   #17
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Car might start fine even with a slightly less efficient battery. Does it crank and start within a short period of time?
I had small delays in my car starting which never made me think there was a battery problem until one day in peak traffic, it gave up suddenly. Had to push start and then it worked fine after that.
A battery check revealed that it indeed had a problem and got it replaced.
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Old 28th October 2010, 11:04   #18
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Originally Posted by navin View Post

2. Like Invinsible as said above, at lower rpms the alternator often puts out a little less. Hence if cold be that your alternator's output at engine-idle condition is inadequate for the stereo system. I had a similar problem with my Contessa 1.8 in the late 80s and I found a alternator guy called Pai electricals in Santacruz who built me a bigger alternator that could delvier the amps I needed when when the engine was idling.
That's the similar situation I had faced once in my esteem 15 years back and 10 years back in my santro. Later had 4 amps and Pai electricals came to the rescue by fitting a bigger alternator. As far as I understand there is a relay in the alternator that goes week and in most cases changing or repairing will be just a temporary solution. Best is to get one size bigger alternator. However I have seen this problem arising more often in cars that are playing loud at idle.

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
in short I would
a.
add and remove a capacitor just to determine / oberve power loss in ms. when ading a capacitor get one with a voltmeter and you can see the voltmeter when the engine is at idle and at high rpms and observe

b.
hange battery if adding the above capacitor did help

c.
if change in battery did not help let consider using smaller amps for front and rear just to check if it is indeed the current draw of the amps that is the culprit. If it is determined that the amps are the culprit and the change in battery did not help and it is observed that the battery health at idle is not adequate to power the amp you will need to upgrade the alternator. Your current alternator would still be usable by another civic.

Best of luck.
Or may be you could disconnect the sub and rear speaker amp. Only run the front to determine if there is a dip in volume while at idle. If there ain't any, I suppose it's the alternator that's not enough to give the desired ampere to all 3 amps at moderate or loud volume. But before you do make sure that the battery is alright and is at full charge. Also, Check the tension on the drive belt and make sure that it is tight enough so that the alternator is not slipping

Read more: How to Troubleshoot a Honda Civic Alternator | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_5444296_trou...#ixzz13d7NwOXN

For info: Each DLS amp requires 60 A at max which means about 80-90A for both the amps at moderate volume + plus the current required by the mono amp.
I did read somewhere in some other forum couple of years back regarding honda civic having similar issues dealing with hi power audio setup. There is some kinda power regulator inbuilt with or along side the alternator that goes kaput. Let me see if I could search the same info.

Last edited by Invinsible : 28th October 2010 at 11:21.
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Old 28th October 2010, 13:30   #19
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It is the alternator not keeping up with the ICE or the ELD playing. To confirm this simply measure the voltage when the dipping occurs.
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Old 28th October 2010, 16:00   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
It is the alternator not keeping up with the ICE or the ELD playing. To confirm this simply measure the voltage when the dipping occurs.
which is why i suggested getting a 1-2F capacitor with a voltmeter.

Tsunami LITEWAVE Series PP912UM-CAP 1.2-farad canister-style capacitor with blue LCD meter at Crutchfield.com
Kole Audio C4D (C-4D) 4.0 Farad Digital Capacitor

it take just 10 minutes to hook one up see video
YouTube - How To Charge A Capacitor Car Audio Style - Power Acoustik PCX Cap - EXOcontralto
Car Audio Capacitor Installation
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Old 28th October 2010, 17:39   #21
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Firstly, one important thing that GTO forgot to mention here, is that after this problem started, once he had the car parked for 3 days. Not started, not used. The 4th day, when he used the car, he did not face this problem. It re-surfaced a day later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Battery should not be in picture since power to ICE would be fed by alternator in a moving car. But since other components are working fine, this should not be alternator issue.
When the draw exceeds the capacity of the alternator, the battery supplies the additional current.

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Firstly, those Yellow-Top batteries were never made by Amaron, they were Optima batteries imported by Amaron, a project that flopped very badly. Whoever has bought those batteries has neither recd his money's worth nor any service. Stay FAR away from these.
I told GTO about this. If in case he gets the Optima, I asked him to make sure he has foolproof warranty documentation.

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
However my question: You have 3 amplifiers in the car. ARe they all running off this 1/0 amplifier wiring kit? If yes then you must have some electrical distribution system. I would begin by looking there.
Its fine. I have checked the voltage at the battery, and then at the amp's power terminals. The voltage is exactly the same, under the same conditions.

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Also when you say that the volume dips - does it dip across the board? I mean does it dip from the front, rear and subwoofer? Or is it just the fronts or rears? Or since you say that you have one 2 channel amplifier for the left and another for the right speakers (an unusual arrangement) - then does the sound dip only from the left or right?
This is very hard to catch. Its a very erratic thing. In a 10min spin that GTO took me for, the system dipped twice. It happens for a fraction of a second. And its very hard to tell if its just front or just rear. I felt the sub amp stayed on. Could be wrong. By the way, I tested the car for a very long time with the car stationary, and idling, with the aircon and headlights on. This, IMO, is a worse situation than bumper to bumper traffic from a power PoV. But the sound didn't dip even once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
If it is just one amplifier acting up, this problem will be easy to solve.
I suspected that the amps driving the mid-tops were probably not as kind to momentary voltage drops, and hence suggested he use a different amplifier for a few days to see if the problem persists. This would have helped narrow down to the cuplrit.

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Capacitors will solve nothing. IMO.
I have advised him the same. Waste of money.

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Originally Posted by CrackedHead View Post
Any evidence of sparking/corrosion at your fuse/distribution block ? Did you try connecting a voltmeter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
I believe the amps is not getting the desired current at idle and the culprit could be the battery or weak alternator.
The voltage was healthy at battery and amp when I last checked, with the headlights and system etc running. Alternator seems fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prass View Post
you can try checking the contact between the Power cable and ring connector which is bolted to the battery terminal, if power cable is not soldered to the ring connector.
Its a crimped joint. If there is any problem here, or anywhere along the power cable, the amplifiers would be going nuts all the time. Not just in some situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Is there any speed dependent volume control feature in the HU? Haven't seen that in Japanese design HUs though.
No, the 4250 doesn't have Pioneer's "ASL".

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Originally Posted by m-hawk View Post
. O yes I can vouch for that my civic has speed dependent volume feature higher the rpm the volume goes higher too !!
GTO isn't using the stock head unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
If however all 3 amps are cutting out together I would check what they share in common - the distribution block.
They also share a lot of other things. Like the battery, for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
which is why i suggested getting a 1-2F capacitor with a voltmeter.
In GTO's car, that capacitor will never even get fully charged! He's pelofying it non-stop.
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Old 29th October 2010, 10:00   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
I suspected that the amps driving the mid-tops were probably not as kind to momentary voltage drops
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
In GTO's car, that capacitor will never even get fully charged! He's pelofying it non-stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
1.
I suspect with your kind of music the capacitor will not be very effective.
I know. BOOM-BOOM-BOOM. It's Techno-House-Party not the 1812!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
No voltmeter connected yet. I'll get all these numbers over the weekend.
I figured the voltmeter on the capacitor could come handy.

B&T do you have a loner cap available?
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Old 29th October 2010, 10:12   #23
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Err sorry to butt in but navin sir isn't it easier to first test and see if it is truly the load but starting with one amp and speaker pair then adding the second and the the third to see at what point it actually starts doing this. Then adding on the cap to see if it stabilises the situation?
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Old 29th October 2010, 10:17   #24
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Originally Posted by valhallen.282 View Post
Err sorry to butt in but navin sir isn't it easier to first test and see if it is truly the load but starting with one amp and speaker pair then adding the second and the the third to see at what point it actually starts doing this. Then adding on the cap to see if it stabilises the situation?
Good idea Val. Trouble here is the problem occurs only when on idle in traffic.

GTO, Val's query threw up another idea.

Turn the car on. Dont rev it. Let it idle. Dont drive it or put it in gear.
Now test the system. See if it dips.
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Old 29th October 2010, 10:58   #25
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Sorry for the late response on this thread. Never got time to actually sit and reply to this thread.

This is ELD and nothing else, according to me. Your chain of events are the same what happened to me also. ELD is the only explaination, no other problem can be detected in your or mine setup also. I was also using 0 Gauge Kicker wires.

1. ICE Stage 1

2x 10" iDMAX/Genesis Profile 4 Ultra/Genesis Profile Sub Ultra. Everything is installed running absolutely fine for a month or two, no problems at all, suddenly during a day while driving to work, My SUBWOOFERS stop working, speakers are running fine, subs dont. Open section comes I floor the car, subs start working again. Bumper to bumper traffic subs turn off, open roads start wokring again. This problem worsens with time. After a lot of brain storming with my installers, I was told about the ELD problem, problem is voltage dropping at lower RPMs, but the MONO use to shut it itself off, or went into PROTECT mode because of that, a safety feature as power produced at low voltages damages the equipment, ICE Gurus here know better. In my friends Civic, he was again running 2 iDMAX subwoofers and 3 audison amplifiers, One 4 channel two monos, In his cars the amplifiers never tripped or shut off, but one by one all his amplifiers went kaput during 6 months of usage.

2. ICE Stage 2

This problem was getting very irritating so I changed my Amps to a iD Q450.4 and an iD 1200.1 Monoblock, problem solved, no shutting or tripping whatsoever but the mono use to get VERY VERY VERY hot, and during one long trip from Gurgaon to Noida, the mono shut down NOT due to voltage drop but due to Thermal over heating, takes 2 hours to cool down and was again working. Again consulted my installers, The mono was working overtime to cope up with the voltage drop and when it reach its point of overheating it shut down.

3. ICE Stage 3

I removed all setup, The electricals could not take two subwoofers, Changed to one Small Genesis Profile 4, Genesis Profile sub mono and One 12" Morel Ultimo subwoofer. Setup running perfect now. Was actually I have now removed everything and revert back to stock OE HU and speakers.


Coming to your problem GTO, like you must have read, there is no actual solution to this problem, I could not find any. Big Altenators and stuff was recommended but I did not go with them as ICE was not such an important part, I had already spend a lot of money on it and decided to STOP. So i dont actually know how a Big three upgrade or a Capacitor or Big alternator will work. I changed my battery to a Bosch Silver but it lead to no drastic change or result. Your Speaker dipping but subwoofers playing indicate that the Speaker amplifiers tend to be more versatile and hence shut or dip levels in order to safe gaurd themselves( The case with my Genesis Profile Sub Ultra monoblock), If you can try changing your 4 Channel amplifiers to something different and test it for a week.
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Old 29th October 2010, 13:27   #26
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There is a work around in the link given by the GTO, Ajay Bhai why not try them.
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Old 29th October 2010, 15:08   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
If however all 3 amps are cutting out together I would check what they share in common - the distribution block.
I can confirm that the subs did cut off last evening. Not once, but several times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Car might start fine even with a slightly less efficient battery. Does it crank and start within a short period of time?
Instantaneously

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Or may be you could disconnect the sub and rear speaker amp. Only run the front to determine if there is a dip in volume while at idle.
Will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
It is the alternator not keeping up with the ICE or the ELD playing. To confirm this simply measure the voltage when the dipping occurs.
What is the solution to this, LBM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
Firstly, one important thing that GTO forgot to mention here, is that after this problem started, once he had the car parked for 3 days. Not started, not used. The 4th day, when he used the car, he did not face this problem. It re-surfaced a day later.
Aha! Now, this is very peculiar. After 3 days of rest, on the 1st drive to work, the problem didn't occur. However, in the evening drive home (same day), it was back to square one (i.e. sound dipping).

Quote:
If in case he gets the Optima, I asked him to make sure he has foolproof warranty documentation.
Search is on at the company (Amaron) level, but I've been told chances are bleak.

Quote:
I suspected that the amps driving the mid-tops were probably not as kind to momentary voltage drops, and hence suggested he use a different amplifier for a few days to see if the problem persists. This would have helped narrow down to the cuplrit.
Let me measure the voltage over the weekend, then try out with a new battery. If that doesn't work, we'll switch the amps.

Thing is, the sound is perfect right now. And I'd hate to lose this SQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhallen.282 View Post
navin sir isn't it easier to first test and see if it is truly the load but starting with one amp and speaker pair then adding the second and the the third to see at what point it actually starts doing this.
Added to the series of things to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Turn the car on. Dont rev it. Let it idle. Dont drive it or put it in gear.
Now test the system. See if it dips.
Look at Ajay's post above. He did exactly this for a long time and there was no dipping.

Also if it helps, I ran the system with the engine off, and no dips either.

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Originally Posted by m4ugr8 View Post
This is ELD and nothing else, according to me. Your chain of events are the same what happened to me also.
You sure our cars have ELD? From whatever I've read so far, only American-spec Civics have it (even Canadian + JDM don't)

Quote:
power produced at low voltages damages the equipment, ICE Gurus here know better
This is worrying. That means, my sound equipment - and other parts of the car - are prone to damage?

Quote:
I removed all setup, The electricals could not take two subwoofers, Changed to one Small Genesis Profile 4, Genesis Profile sub mono and One 12" Morel Ultimo subwoofer. Setup running perfect now. Was actually I have now removed everything and revert back to stock OE HU and speakers.
If stage 3 was working fine, why did you revert back to OE HU + speakers?
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Old 29th October 2010, 15:12   #28
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One more thing one can try is switching off the SUB woofer amp only as it is the main current consuming one. Just run the speaker amp as see the dipping occurs. Also if possible try measure the voltage at the time of dipping post and after !!!
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Old 29th October 2010, 16:20   #29
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Quote:
power produced at low voltages damages the equipment, ICE Gurus here know better


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
... This is worrying. That means, my sound equipment - and other parts of the car - are prone to damage? ...
Don't worry, only electrical motors with a significant mechanical load are damaged under sustained low-voltage conditions (the reason why voltage stabilizers were recommended for refrigerators, air conditioners etc.), not ICE or other equipment in the car. ICE will only produce power proportional to supply voltage in such conditions.
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Old 29th October 2010, 16:52   #30
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Here's some info on the ELD in order to understand it better from some of the forums.

Meet your ELD - Electrical Load Detector.... - Honda Civic Forum

Electronic Load Detector (ELD) questions regarding low voltage from battery - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

and solution to the problem
http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthre...11#Post1806468

In the end I would suggest get a High Output Alternator with alteast 150amps. Here's one 2006 NEW HONDA CIVIC HIGH OUTPUT ALTERNATOR 170 AMPS

Apart from this you could also switch to Full range class D amps that slightly more efficient and draw less current compared to the Class AB amps.

Hope this helps

Last edited by Invinsible : 29th October 2010 at 16:58.
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